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To: Forest Keeper
Sometimes, Calvinists do not take the plain meaning interpretation of a verse or passage. I won't deny that. However, I think that Apostolics will not take the plain meaning interpretation of other verses more often. I remain convinced that the average intelligent and disinterested party who reads the Bible cold will report a theology much closer to that of the Reformed than that of the Apostolic every time.

Well, as you have said before, it is GOD who "wrote" the Bible. Thus, the "typical man" coming to the Bible and "siding" with the Reformer is pointless, even if true, since the intent and meaning of Scriptures is determined by God, who has transmitted that meaning to the Apostles and then their successors. I appreciate your candor, but WE are not expected to be Scripture scholars to figure out what God intends to say to mankind. He left us a living Church to teach it!

God ordains everything, but He doesn't "do" everything. When I sin, I "do" it.

What do you mean by "ordain"? Are you saying that God wills us to sin, or He intends for us to sin? I am not sure about what you mean.

That's not true at all. If we posit that Mother Theresa was a true believer, then she was nothing like Hitler. She was free to do good in God's eyes, and presumably did so. There's no comparison. It is true that God used them both for His purposes, but from our human POV it is perfectly fine to say that she was good and he was evil.

Ah, but God "built" them that way, so how is it Hitler's fault that he killed millions of people indirectly? He had no free will and God ordained it. Thus, God will be judged in the after life for "ordaining" a Hitler?

I am saying that it COULD NOT have been for the sake of ALL others if it was unnecessary. What is the value of the sacrifice if it never needed to happen?

As I have tried to say before, Christ died on the cross not out of necessity, but out of love. It is the ultimate expression of self-giving, which is what love is, the "dying of self for another". Remember, Jesus was not "committing suicide", because He knew and trusted that He would rise again. The Passion is not the end of the story.

Regards

8,918 posted on 10/12/2007 4:07:24 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; blue-duncan; kosta50
What do you mean by "ordain"? Are you saying that God wills us to sin, or He intends for us to sin? I am not sure about what you mean.

By "ordain" I mean "that which is set into God's plan". Many times, our sin DOES fit into God's plan so it is ordained. For example, God did not REACT to Pharaoh's obstinacy. He ordained it for His purposes. It was the same with Judas. It was not "fortuitous" that Judas would betray Jesus at precisely the right time. It was ordained.

Ah, but God "built" them that way, so how is it Hitler's fault that he killed millions of people indirectly? He had no free will and God ordained it. Thus, God will be judged in the after life for "ordaining" a Hitler?

There is no one qualified to judge God, so I don't understand the suggestion. It is Hitler's fault for what he did because he and everyone else is responsible for his own sin. God had no duty to grace him to such a degree as to prevent it. For His reasons, God passed over Hitler when He was giving out saving grace. Although to us, the horror of the holocaust is unimaginable, it nonetheless served God's purpose that it happened.

8,936 posted on 10/13/2007 1:04:07 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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