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To: jo kus; P-Marlowe; suzyjaruki
EVERYTIME that God tells man to obey Him, it implies that man has the ability to do so - or not.

I would argue that you have the wrong implication. Every time God tells man to obey Him is simply evidences to the rest of us that we are incapable of obedience without His help. It isn't that we have the ability. The Law was given for our instruction so that we can see how far short we fall, not how much we measure up. God has given us ALL these examples simply to show us that we CANNOT obey Him.

God tell people not to stick peas up there nose and people stick peas up their noses. God tell people not to go swimming without sun screen and people go swimming without sun screen. God tell people to back up their hard drives and people don't do it and suffer the results. All the examples in the Old (and some in the New) serves to show what a disobedient people we are and how we need God's help to overcome this disobedience. God gives us His Law and we can't keep it. As Paul states, the Law isn't bad but we died because we refuse to follow it (well at least the parts we don't like).

Quite frankly, the Church has unanimously affirmed that man has free will.

Nonsense. This was always an area of contention. The west and Church has abandon their monergistic view of the western church. Roman Catholicism is moving towards Orthodoxy.

8,028 posted on 10/03/2007 6:53:34 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

We should distinguish between:

spontaneous acts, those proceeding from an internal principle (e.g. the growth of plants and impulsive movements of animals);
voluntary acts in a wide sense, those proceeding from an internal principle with apprehension of an end (e.g. all conscious desires); and, finally
those voluntary in the strict sense, that is, deliberate or free acts.


Am I to understand that under Reformed doctrine that man can only commit acts of spontaneity (ie God providing the entire inner principle of action and man CANNOT do any other), or does man have the ABILITY to commit acts only with that apprehension of an end (ie towards either heaven (if elect) or hell (if non elect)), but not voluntary in the strict sense of free will that man deliberately chooses specific actions freely?


8,030 posted on 10/03/2007 7:53:06 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: HarleyD
I would argue that you have the wrong implication. Every time God tells man to obey Him is simply evidences to the rest of us that we are incapable of obedience without His help.

You are forgeting that just because man has been given free will does not mean that God does not aid man to complete a task that man assents to, with God's help. You seem to hold an "either/or" idea, rather than one where God and man "work" together. If man has no free will, then there is no such thing as sin, since sin is a WILLFUL disobedience to God.

The west and Church has abandon their monergistic view of the western church. Roman Catholicism is moving towards Orthodoxy.

Nonsense. I have posted numerous Western Fathers that show they also believed in free will.

Regards

8,038 posted on 10/03/2007 9:36:37 AM PDT by jo kus
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