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To: Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; suzyjaruki; irishtenor; ...
The consensus patrum does not teach that the "elect" will always persevere. But then again, the Fathers' notions of "election" were rather different from those of Calvin or even Augustine.

1) Thus there is no actual "consensus patrum" if you just gave two church fathers who disagreed.

2) "Elect" refers to those who have been chosen by God to receive His grace. If someone does not persevere until the end, then by definition they were not among the elect in the first place.

God is not imprecise.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

7,772 posted on 09/30/2007 6:00:52 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
If someone does not persevere until the end, then by definition they were not among the elect in the first place.

Sounds like you defined away the whole theology of the P in TULIP. The elect always persevere because those who persevere are by definition the elect.

And you have the assurance you're elect and so does FK, for example; but if FK doesn't persevere, he wasn't really elect, even though he had assurance. And vice-versa...

7,773 posted on 09/30/2007 6:24:28 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
1) Thus there is no actual "consensus patrum" if you just gave two church fathers who disagreed.

A consensus is not necessarily unanimous...

2) "Elect" refers to those who have been chosen by God to receive His grace. If someone does not persevere until the end, then by definition they were not among the elect in the first place.

Again, not necessarily. God gives EVERYONE graces. Just our existence alone is grace. Those elect are those called, not those going to heaven.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

As usual, you take the words written to a community and apply them individually to yourself when there is no justification for that. Read the context of Phil 1. This was my point regarding taking Paul's writing to a community and transfering it to yourself.

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; Phil 1:1-7

Paul is writing to the community at Philippi, not to Dr. Eckleburg or any particular Christian. His "God will complete His work within you" refers to the COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, not the individual Christian. Paul is NOT guaranteeing that EVERY Christian at Philippi will be granted eternal life in heaven. This is obvious when elsewhere, Paul says that SOME INDIVIDUALS will fall away. It is the COMMUNITY that Paul speaks to here. The plural "YOU". Thus, it is mistaken and presumptive bible iegesis to think that Paul is guaranteeing that God will irrevocably bring ALL Christians to heaven.

Just as when Jesus speaks of the flock and Paul speaks of the church community, they are referring to the community as a whole. Those who remain within her will be saved for heaven. Those who fall away will not. Thus, the Church's "no salvation outside of the Church". God doesn't promise that mere initiation will bring people to heaven. Only those who persevere in the end will be saved for the Kingdom.

Regards

7,815 posted on 10/01/2007 5:29:03 AM PDT by jo kus
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