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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
If someone does not persevere until the end, then by definition they were not among the elect in the first place.

Sounds like you defined away the whole theology of the P in TULIP. The elect always persevere because those who persevere are by definition the elect.

And you have the assurance you're elect and so does FK, for example; but if FK doesn't persevere, he wasn't really elect, even though he had assurance. And vice-versa...

7,773 posted on 09/30/2007 6:24:28 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Forest Keeper

“If someone does not persevere until the end, then by definition they were not among the elect in the first place”

It was quoted accurately.

Charles Hodge (Systematic Theology, 3.16.8):

“Perseverance...is due to the purpose of God [in saving men and thereby bringing glory to his name], to the work of Christ [in cancelling men’s debt and earning their righteousness ], to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit [in sealing men in salvation and leading them in God’s ways], and to the primal source of all, the infinite, mysterious, and immutable love of God.”

After God has regenerated someone, the person’s will cannot reverse its course. The person is indwelt and led by the Holy Spirit and nothing and nobody can separate them from the love of God. God has changed that person in ways that are outside of his or her own ability to alter fundamentally, and he or she will therefore persevere in the faith. It is the seed that fell on good ground and bore much fruit (persevered). Seed fell: on hard ground and Satan takes it with no fruit; rocky ground that had some fruit but when trials came died; among thorns and bore fruit until the cares of the world choked it and died. None persevered since the seed fell in places not prepared by the sower like the good ground had been.


7,774 posted on 09/30/2007 6:50:07 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: D-fendr; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; irishtenor; suzyjaruki; wmfights
Men are not elect because they persevere. They persevere because they are elect.

All who persevere do so because it is by the will of God, according to the will of God.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

You go ahead and worry. As for me and mine, I'll rest assured in His promise not to let go.

7,786 posted on 09/30/2007 8:56:55 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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