OK, I think I may be getting confused among the Orthodox and Latin views. These words are in my head: "laying on of hands", Chrismation, and Confirmation. I am reasonably confident that you both believe that in the typical case the Holy Spirit enters the child. How and when does this happen?
If there is nothing that we can do to attain salvation, then how is perseverance required?
God ordained that perseverance is required:
Matt 24:12-13 : 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
And, God also ordained that He would ensure this perseverance:
Phil 1:6 : ... being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
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What happens if a member of the Reformed Elect pull up a spiritual LaZBoy?
It cannot happen permanently per the above. It is common for true Christians to fall away temporarily, but God ALWAYS either brings them back or brings them home. :)
If you say that that person was never an elect and this is proof, then that is at least consistent.
Sure, we can never have conclusive proof about any OTHER man one way or the other, so we form opinions. If someone who appeared to be a believer then became apostate by spouting anti-Christian drivel for the rest of his life, then I would make an educated guess that he was never really a true believer in the first place.
So then, we are left with no exterior evidence of whether a person is of the elect or not.
That's right. The God-provided science of men cannot prove to you that I am of the elect. That, of course, is by design. God's declared plan was that we witness to all peoples of all nations. If we could identify the elect, then we wouldn't bother with the rest.
[continuing:] Hmm, does that mean that one of the elect will find it impossible to not persevere? Robot slave again?
ALL of the elect will find it impossible to not persevere. God said so, as I indicated. I do not see this as robotic, but if you see it as so, then your argument is with God and His word.
We have it possible for mankind to attain Heaven because of the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. Otherwise, unless He individually brings us to Heaven, such as the thief on the adjoining cross, or Elijah, then we wouldn’t be able attain everlasting life.
Do you see the thief as a special exception, and not consistent with what is otherwise taught in scripture? I do not. Grace through faith, period. :) His perseverance was his dying testimony. He was no different than any of us.
Sure, you can. Just ask him.
Then he can ask you.
And then you both have conclusive proof.
+Matthew clearly places the perseverance on the believer.
God also ordained that He would ensure this perseverance: Phil 1:6 : ... being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus
+Paul clearly places the perseverance on God, and not the believer.
The Church follows the Gospels. The Protestants follow their interpretation of +Paul.
According to +Paul's view, wickedness would have no effect on us since God is not affected by wickedness. In fact, in Phil. 1:10 he speaks of being "blameless" to the end.
Thus, the Gospels lead us to repentance. The Epistle lead us to believe that once we are "washed" in Christ's Blood we are blameless in His eyes and therefore cannot do wrong, even if we sin. Hence, repentance for the Protestant is a one-time event. Afterwards is self-righteousness to the end.
These are clearly two different religions. Only one is taught by Christ in person. The other one believes in Christ through proxy.
At Baptism, the Holy Spirit is brought into the child in order to remove the stain of original sin. The priest asks that the Holy Spirit enter the child during the Sacrament.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm says that:
1213
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word.”5
1240
In the Latin Church this triple infusion is accompanied by the minister’s words: “N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” In the Eastern liturgies the catechumen turns toward the East and the priest says: “The servant of God, N., is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” At the invocation of each person of the Most Holy Trinity, the priest infuses the candidate with the water and raises him up again.
1241
The anointing with sacred chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifies the gift of the Holy Spirit to the newly baptized, who has become a Christian, that is, one “anointed” by the Holy Spirit, incorporated into Christ who is anointed priest, prophet, and king.41
1242
In the liturgy of the Eastern Churches, the post-baptismal anointing is the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation). In the Roman liturgy the post-baptismal anointing announces a second anointing with sacred chrism to be conferred later by the bishop—Confirmation, which will as it were “confirm” and complete the baptismal anointing.
1243
The white garment symbolizes that the person baptized has “put on Christ,”42 has risen with Christ. The candle, lit from the Easter candle, signifies that Christ has enlightened the neophyte. In him the baptized are “the light of the world.”43
The newly baptized is now, in the only Son, a child of God entitled to say the prayer of the children of God: “Our Father.”
1265
Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71
1266
The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
If God has ordained perseverance, and He ensures that perseverance is guaranteed, then what effort is required? If it’s His will, and His actions, and His perseverence, then what in the world does He need (some of) us for?
That’s interesting circular logic: all true Christians fall away and are brought back so that shows a true Christian. All untrue Christians fall away and are not brought back (or never were, they just appeared to be there), so that by definition they are not true Christians. Could you expand on the bringing back process? How does one know if one is brought back?
I agree that the thief is a special exception. Jesus brought him to Salvation by His own direct action. We have no recourse to such action; we go along in the fashion that He directed us.
Where is the verse that tells us WHO is a "true Christian"? The Scriptures do not tell us that "true Christians" will ALWAYS be brought back. There is no such verse. Are there any verses that discuss "true Christians" vs the ones who fall away and were "never true Christians to begin with"?
Regards