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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
But it doesn't answer my question. Is God's perseverance judged or man's?

God's actions are never subject to judgment, as it would make no sense. In the arena of salvation, since men do not gain salvation by the merit of their works, their works of perseverance are not effectively judged for this purpose. However, in the judgment for reward, acts of men that would fall under the category of perseverance will be judged (along with all others) to determine Heavenly reward.

When you mean "salvation secured in this life", I presume you mean heaven. Well, I won't say we can absolutely be certain, but we can have assuredness that as long as we remain in Christ, our hope will not be in vain. I do not feel comfortable with presumption.

OK, that's a good step in the right direction. I actually remember from before that in expressing it, you had the most optimistic views in this area amongst your like minded brethren. :)

6,664 posted on 09/19/2007 10:10:11 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
However, in the judgment for reward, acts of men that would fall under the category of perseverance will be judged (along with all others) to determine Heavenly reward.

We have most certainly have had this discussion before. If you recall, I gave you a number of examples where judgment is to heaven OR hell. While a few passages could be taken to mean "rewards" judgment, such as the parable of the talents, the majority of Jesus's parables speak of an either heaven/hell judgment, such as the Wedding Feast. There will be no "gnashing of teeth" as a reward!

The simple fact remains that this idea really doesn't follow the Scriptures. Men are judged based on how they utilize the graces from God. No, they don't earn anything, because NO ONE can say "look what I done by myself". But it is very clear that we are to obey commandments and we are subsequently judged FOR HEAVEN OR HELL based on our following God's will.

For example:

Strive to enter in at the narrow gate; (ouch, that hurts the "God does everything" idea, doesn't it?) for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able. When once the husband of the house is risen up and shall have shut the door, and ye begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not from where ye are, then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say unto you, I know you not from where ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity. In that place shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out. And [others] shall come from the east and [from] the west and from the north and [from] the south and shall sit [at the table] in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. Luke 13:24-30

I actually remember from before that in expressing it, you had the most optimistic views in this area amongst your like minded brethren. :)

Nyuk, nyuk, I'm just a happy-go-lucky guy!

Regards

6,710 posted on 09/19/2007 2:01:58 PM PDT by jo kus
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