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To: Forest Keeper; irishtenor; Gamecock; MarkBsnr; D-fendr
Given their view that all people are God's children, my experience with the Apostolic beliefs is that they would say that while God is powerful enough to save anyone, He refuses to do so because paying homage to man's free will is far more important to God than saving His own children

Not really, FK. We only know that God's love does not force itself, but offers to all.

God would rather see His own beloved child go to hell for eternity than intrude on his free will

No true, FK. Especially coming from a Protestant who believes God creates some people specifically to go to hell "for His pleasure and Glory." The Bible is clear that God takes "no pleasure" in suffering. If we go to hell it's because we condemn ourselves by sinning and refusing to repent. We condemn ourselves by refusing God.

Their version of God does not have the will to get what He wants

Our view is that God has everything, and lacks nothing.

I think they would say that God does communicate with the laity, but certainly not on any issues such as faith and morals on which the Church has taken a stand

Well, how is this different from everyone making up his own rules and morality based on the "indwelling spirit" (which could just as well be a demon or even a mental illness)?

God "can't" give assurance to any man in scriptures because until the day he dies, man's destiny is in his own hands.

Maybe because the Bible tells us to "choose life?" (Deut 30:19, 2 Kin 18:32). God is telling us that we do have a say in our destiny. He offers us salvation. Ours is to accept it and give ourselves to Him.

Yes, God will not interfere. It is man's sovereign decision.

Baloney, FK. Isa 38:5 says otherwise. He hears our prayers and responds to those that are pure in intent.

10,995 posted on 11/14/2007 7:32:03 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Not really, FK. We only know that God's love does not force itself, but offers to all.

Did God ask you if you wanted to be born into this world? Did God get your permission to be created? Yes or no?

11,000 posted on 11/14/2007 8:04:55 AM PST by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: kosta50
Maybe because the Bible tells us to "choose life?" (Deut 30:19, 2 Kin 18:32).

What man ought to do is not the same as what man can do. Fallen, arrogant man is responsible to a Sovereign God, as all is subject to and responsible to the Sovereign God. However, fallen man is in a state of spiritual blindness and death, indeed is born and lives his life on earth in open and continuous rebellion and rejection of God. God in His Providential Free Will exercises His Free Will to choose to give new life to those whom He Wills, which is exactly what the teaching of Christ and Apostolic teaching of Scripture clearly teaches. Where both the Romans and Greeks went astray was the acceptance of Aristotelian concepts of "free will", that ultimately makes man's will sovereign, and makes man responsible for his own salvation, whereby God looks down on man and rewards him for making the right decision, thus finding some inherent goodness in man that makes God reward him with heaven. God is telling us that we do have a say in our destiny. He offers us salvation. Ours is to accept it and give ourselves to Him.

Thus you are the ultimate cause of salvation.

11,001 posted on 11/14/2007 8:16:35 AM PST by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: kosta50; irishtenor; Gamecock; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Missey_Lucy_Goosey
FK: "Given their view that all people are God's children, my experience with the Apostolic beliefs is that they would say that while God is powerful enough to save anyone, He refuses to do so because paying homage to man's free will is far more important to God than saving His own children."

Not really, FK. We only know that God's love does not force itself, but offers to all.

Then how do you explain how God failed in His mission to save all? I could think of no other logical explanation than that it was more important to God to preserve man's free will than to save him.

FK: "God would rather see His own beloved child go to hell for eternity than intrude on his free will."

No true, FK. ...... The Bible is clear that God takes "no pleasure" in suffering. If we go to hell it's because we condemn ourselves by sinning and refusing to repent. We condemn ourselves by refusing God.

Yes we condemn ourselves, and I didn't say anything about God's pleasure in this, I just postulated His priorities based on Apostolic thought. IF God is powerful enough to save anyone He wants, and IF God wants all to be saved, and IF not all are saved, then there must be a reason. I have given the only logical reason I have heard so far. If there is another I will certainly listen. :)

Our view is that God has everything, and lacks nothing.

Well, God certainly lacks all being saved, which is what you say He wanted.

Well, how is this different from everyone making up his own rules and morality based on the "indwelling spirit" (which could just as well be a demon or even a mental illness)?

The difference is simply in whether it is true or not. The Holy Spirit either leads or He does not. I do not fear that I am being led by a demon just as you do not fear that the men whose faith you are putting your trust in were led by demons.

Maybe because the Bible tells us to "choose life?" (Deut 30:19, 2 Kin 18:32). God is telling us that we do have a say in our destiny. He offers us salvation. Ours is to accept it and give ourselves to Him.

As MLG said, all who CAN choose life, will. Your quote is one of many outward callings. They are not inward callings indicating predestination or ordination.

FK: "Yes, God will not interfere. It is man's sovereign decision."

Baloney, FK. Isa 38:5 says otherwise. He hears our prayers and responds to those that are pure in intent.

You are making my case. Man, in his sovereignty, chooses to pray for salvation. He uses his inner goodness to produce a pure heart, along with grace God gives to everyone, and God never says "no". Therefore, man determines his own fate under the Apostolic belief.

11,048 posted on 11/14/2007 10:02:28 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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