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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan; ...
FK: "Well, if the only purpose of prayer was to change God's mind and get stuff, then I would agree with you completely."

That's the meaning of prayer in the languages of the Bible: asking for mercy, a divine favor. Again, you are confusing prayer with worship (giving praise, adoration), although adoration usually precedes prayer.

First off, I don't know how you split adoration FROM prayer. Jesus certainly did NOT do that when He taught us how to PRAY. Within THAT teaching was worship and adoration, along with asking for stuff. Anyway, did you read the passage from Calvin I posted? In it, he explained many other benefits of prayer besides getting stuff. That these exist, Calvin gave the example of Elijah. In 1 Kings 18, there had been a three year drought/famine in Samaria. We are told:

1 Kings 18:1 : After a long time, in the third year, the word of the Lord came to Elijah: "Go and present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the land."

Now, we both know what it means here: "the word of the Lord came to Elijah". That's money in the bank to a righteous man. No need to worry about it, if God said it, it will happen. In fact, by verse 15 we know that Elijah agrees, since he sends Obadiah to announce Elijah's coming to Ahab. Obviously this would have meant Elijah's death, EXCEPT that he believed that he should follow the word of the Lord. So now we know for sure what Elijah thought of the word of the Lord.

Now, fast forward through what I still think is one of the funniest scenes in the whole Bible, the God-off between Elijah and Ahab's Baal prophets, and then we see this:

1 Kings 18:41-44 : 41 And Elijah said to Ahab, "Go, eat and drink, for there is the sound of a heavy rain." 42 So Ahab went off to eat and drink, but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees. 43 "Go and look toward the sea," he told his servant. And he went up and looked. "There is nothing there," he said. Seven times Elijah said, "Go back." 44 The seventh time the servant reported, "A cloud as small as a man's hand is rising from the sea." So Elijah said, "Go and tell Ahab, 'Hitch up your chariot and go down before the rain stops you.'"

OK, why did Elijah do this??? Why would Elijah pray about the rain (we know this by what he told the servant) after clearly hearing the word of the Lord and trusting it enough to bet his life on it? Was it because he lost his faith somehow after he had just witnessed God's miracle, PROVING God true? Of course not. Calvin uses this example to show that Elijah KNEW that it was still good for him to pray even KNOWING that God had already promised to HIM that it was going to rain. Elijah KNEW that there is more to prayer than just getting stuff.

10,019 posted on 10/29/2007 4:42:58 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan
but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees.

Prostration is a sign of adoration, worship, respect. WE do that without asking for anything from God. As we walk into an Orthodox church, we bow as we enter His house and make a sign of the cross (a way of saying praised be the Lord!). Most Orthodox Christians will bend their knees and touch the ground (metania). During liturgical worship, such as consecration, the Orthodox will sometimes fall to the ground like Elijah did, or take a deep bow.

None of these signs of respect and adoration of God are actually prayers. Prayers are supplications sung by the priest and the laity, asking God for mercy, forgiveness, etc., in other words, supplications, pleedings, mixed with visible acts of adoration. Read the text of the 1,600-year-old Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysotsom and then tell me if you don't see the difference (or if you see that it's not scriptural).

Calvinist services involve singing and a preacher of some kind walking on stage drawing unnecessary attention to himself or herself (like in the case of Pastor Scott's beautiful pastor-wife, with her long, flowing hair) all of which distracts from God and is pure vanity.

Our services are focused on God and God only. It's not a performance. It's not high tech. It's not a "pep" talk like some mega "church" pastors and their "feel good" preaching. Most of the time our priest's back is turned towards the people and all we do is pray and worship, focusing on God with nothing to distract us from it (in many Orthodox churches the women and men are separated exactly for the that reason—because the mind and the eyes tend to wonder).

But I can see why you would not know the difference.

10,022 posted on 10/29/2007 5:37:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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