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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan
but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees.

Prostration is a sign of adoration, worship, respect. WE do that without asking for anything from God. As we walk into an Orthodox church, we bow as we enter His house and make a sign of the cross (a way of saying praised be the Lord!). Most Orthodox Christians will bend their knees and touch the ground (metania). During liturgical worship, such as consecration, the Orthodox will sometimes fall to the ground like Elijah did, or take a deep bow.

None of these signs of respect and adoration of God are actually prayers. Prayers are supplications sung by the priest and the laity, asking God for mercy, forgiveness, etc., in other words, supplications, pleedings, mixed with visible acts of adoration. Read the text of the 1,600-year-old Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysotsom and then tell me if you don't see the difference (or if you see that it's not scriptural).

Calvinist services involve singing and a preacher of some kind walking on stage drawing unnecessary attention to himself or herself (like in the case of Pastor Scott's beautiful pastor-wife, with her long, flowing hair) all of which distracts from God and is pure vanity.

Our services are focused on God and God only. It's not a performance. It's not high tech. It's not a "pep" talk like some mega "church" pastors and their "feel good" preaching. Most of the time our priest's back is turned towards the people and all we do is pray and worship, focusing on God with nothing to distract us from it (in many Orthodox churches the women and men are separated exactly for the that reason—because the mind and the eyes tend to wonder).

But I can see why you would not know the difference.

10,022 posted on 10/29/2007 5:37:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan; ...
FK: [1 Kings 18:42:] "... but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees."

Prostration is a sign of adoration, worship, respect. WE do that without asking for anything from God.

So your answer is that Elijah, a righteous man, went to the mountain top with his servant, and not part of any religious observance in a church of course, prostrated himself before nothing, since it was not God's house and God wasn't "there" and none of His angels were "there", then got up without praying? :) Look, I honestly don't know, but I thought when one prostrates, it is before "something", whether it be God Himself, or one of His angels (as in scripture, even if it was wrong to do so), or in His house, or even before a human king. It just has to be IN FRONT OF something. None of that applied on the mountain top. IOW, no one climbs a mountain top to prostrate himself before God, then gets up and leaves without praying. :)

Therefore, the much more reasonable conclusion is that Elijah was praying. I don't even have a problem with supposing that he was prostrated, but I can't believe he wasn't praying while doing so. What would be the point? I see your rationale as forced. Your description just doesn't fit the situation on the mountain top.

None of these signs of respect and adoration of God are actually prayers. Prayers are supplications sung by the priest and the laity, asking God for mercy, forgiveness, etc., in other words, supplications, pleadings, mixed with visible acts of adoration.

I am not really moved to argue over what is a prayer. I know what it is and I'm sure you do too. :) In the Lord's Prayer, there are "signs of respect and adoration of God", and there is also supplication. That's all I need to know. :) But here, your second sentence appears to betray your first. If prayers are, IOW, "supplications, pleadings, mixed with visible acts of adoration" (second sentence), then how can you say that adoration of God doesn't count as prayer (first sentence)?

Calvinist services involve singing and a preacher of some kind walking on stage drawing unnecessary attention to himself or herself (like in the case of Pastor Scott's beautiful pastor-wife, with her long, flowing hair) all of which distracts from God and is pure vanity.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Well, yes there is singing such as in:

Ex 15:1-5 : 1 Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord: "I will sing to the Lord, for he is highly exalted. The horse and its rider he has hurled into the sea. 2 The Lord is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3 The Lord is a warrior; the Lord is his name. 4 Pharaoh's chariots and his army he has hurled into the sea. The best of Pharaoh's officers are drowned in the Red Sea. 5 The deep waters have covered them; they sank to the depths like a stone. ......

Of course the lyrics probably sounded snappier in the original language, but there are tons of examples of singing to the Lord in scripture. I don't understand any church that looks down its nose at singing to the Lord.

In addition, I must object to your assertion that all of our preachers draw unnecessary attention to themselves. LOL! My church isn't even a Calvinist church, but I can assure you that we have no "long, flowing hair" wafting about on stage distracting the congregation from their worship. :) Our pulpit is a waft-free zone!!!

Our services are focused on God and God only. It's not a performance. It's not high tech. It's not a "pep" talk like some mega "church" pastors and their "feel good" preaching.

Your services SHOULD be focused on God and God only. The services at my church are too. The musical component of our services, consisting of singers and instrumentalists, are merely an aid to the worship. Nobody comes to our church on Sunday to hear the music. The vast majority of them come to worship God. Some/many of them also, as an aside, appreciate the music for the glory it (hopefully :) gives to God. Our Minister of Music tells us all the time that our purpose is to bring glory to God, and that's it.

As far as high tech, our pastor wears a microphone so that everyone can hear him. We are by no means a large church but not everyone would be able to hear without it. We also use screens to show scripture in big letters during the sermon, lyrics to hymns in big letters, announcements, missions videos, etc. I fail to see how this would taint the worship experience. But neither do I say that every church SHOULD be like mine in this regard. Not at all. I surely agree that some of the mega-churches are over-hyped and have a watered-down message in order to "reach" (cater to) the most people. This is ridiculous and unscriptural. God's word is God's word and should be preached regardless of how many people will like it at the first hearing. The truth can't be compromised like that. Even if milk is on the menu, there are good ways to serve it and bad ways too.

10,086 posted on 10/30/2007 5:33:13 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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