Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Wednesday, 11 July 2007
Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.
The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.
It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.
One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.
First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.
The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.
The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.
All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.
Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.
How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.
“IF they were equals from separate jurisdictions btw only ONE would be commemorated not both.”
That doesn’t make sense. Because they are from separate jurisdictions they are both commemorated, equally.
They're born bishops? Are they elected, appointed, what?
Well their certainly not ‘made’. Are you suggesting there’s some sort of Bishop factory? (Perhaps I’m missing the subtleties of yet another Christianity merged with paganism nonsense and you’re infering that we conjur them up)
As to how Bishops are picked why don’t you read the numerous New Testament guidelines on that.
Nope.
We have all 72 books and are very happy with all of them.
Well, we do have some conscientious objectors in that fight and they are slowly being winnowed as the chaff from the wheat.
At least this exemplary archbishop is not calling for gay marriage, as are considerable portions of the leadership in certain denominations. The USCCB has drifted further from Rome than any other CCB. It’s just taking longer to pull them back.
Are you saying that Adam and Jesus started out in the same fashion? No, that’s not possible.
Wisdom? If you have perfect righteousness, doesn’t that preclude the ability to sin? Do you consider wisdom a part of righteousness?
I wouldn't say it's a requirement of God. Unless He wished to create human beings. Free will, the ability to control or abuse our instincts, self-consciousness.. these define us as human beings as opposed to animals.
Free will is also as obvious in our every day experience as our senses. To deny it exists is akin to saying we can't trust our own eyes.
The Calvinist method - deducing experiential data from theology reminds me of errors long ago of deducing astonomical data from theology. It's a category error of course.
If your theology requires a "fact" that is constantly disproved by direct experience, you've got a serious problem that's not easily overcome.
thanks for your reply
LOL! Where did you go to school for math?
Do you believe that God judges man or not? What basis does God use to judge man? Hint, see the Scriptures...
Your formula, while "quaint", is not biblical. Man is judged based on HIS actions, not God's actions. Thus, for good or for ill, man's eternal destination is NOT independent of man's free will decisions throughout his life, whether we say God moved the man's will or not, the fact remains that God allows man to do good or do evil.
The fact that man is judged ruins your "new math".
Regards
I agree with your statement about relativism, but I think that the reasons go a lot further than simply accommodating the feminists.
I think that it goes back to the Reformation and the power, wealth and ego that ensured its success.
IMO it’s about accomodating Satan and weakening Christianity to the expansion of Islam...
Fair enough.
The humans get power, wealth and ego. Satan gets a weakened and divided church, opening the cracks still further for an Islamic expansion.
We stood them up in Vienna twice and drove them back. We drove them out of Spain. Now they’re back in Europe and there’s no strong united Church to stop them.
Sounds like current immigration policy in the Excited States of America.
You could be right. You told me to check the NT to see how y’all get bishops, which would mean they’re selected from men in good standing in the community (congregation), not from any kind of pool of Priests.
Since y’all are sticklers in the area of head coverings, per 1st Cor, are funny shaped heads that looks an awful lot like head coverings of various types something that grow on some of the men after they’ve been selected or is it something that those who do the selecting look for? I know it can't be that any of the men in this video are wearing head coverings of any sort, cuz "Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head."
Yes, I meant necessary for us. God must be true to Himself, to His own nature. Part of that nature is justice. We can't know the metrics of how that works, but I assume that for it to be satisfied required an ultimate sacrifice by Christ. I just can't see Him doing it as only an expression, IF there was nothing literal to be gained. To me that makes it look like more of a show than a true sacrifice. If God's justice would have been truly satisfied with a statement, then did Jesus REALLY sacrifice? I would think not.
The "external" was in reference to the human ...
OK, I see.
But even if this refers to the relationship between God and the Bible, the Bible is God's Words written down in a book. Do they have any more power than anything else that God created with His Word? ALL of creation is from God, so I would presume that ALL of creation, to include the Bible, relates God's Word and manifests it in a particular way.
Well, I would say that God's word has much more power than a tree sitting in a forest, even though they came from the same source. The Bible tells us that God's word has particular power:
Eph 6:17 : Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
God's word is so powerful it is even meant to be used as a weapon. And this makes perfect sense. When we are attacked by the world or by satan, God's word is what defends us. Trees can't do that. :) As an example, when Jesus was tempted in the desert, He SOLELY used the power of the word of God to defend.
Well, I don't want to give you the wrong impression either. :) Intellectually, I can suppose anything for the sake of discussion. I really, really, really, really believe that I AM marked as one of the flock (HS) and that the Bible promises that God will not let me lose my salvation. So, I live my life in service to Him with that premise. However, I do not claim to have Divine knowledge of this. If what I believe turns out to be right, then all along God KNEW it much better than I ever could have.
While we do not have absolute certitude, we have a moral certitude that God is righteous and will guide us through until the end, that God will place within us the desire to remain on the narrow road and will reward us with the promised inheritance at the end...
OK, that sounds better than what I thought. :) So, while we still have clear differences on the subject, maybe we are not as far apart as we thought. That would be good.
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