Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
For all intents and purposes it is the same thing.
Just as a child can lose their inheritance WHICH THEY HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED, I, as well, can lose my inheritance, despite receiving the first fruits of the Spirit.
There is the clear error. A child CANNOT lose his inheritance. It is set aside until he is of age. Then he receives it and can do with it as he wishes. The inheritance itself cannot be lost before it is received. It is the same with salvation, except that with salvation the receiving is entry into Heaven. Blowing it after that is moot.
“There are 33,000 plus divisions in that self-made world”
And how many Orthodox denominations are there in the “self-made world”?
Albanian / Greek-speaking (Orthodox)
Arabic or Arabic / Greek-speaking Orthodox
Armenian Orthodox (Gregorian)
Bulgarian Orthodox
Byelorussian / Belorussian (While Russian / White Ruthenian)
Coptic Orthodox
Czech / Slavonic-speaking Orthodox
Estonian Orthodox
Ethiopic, Ethiopian Orthodox, GoOez-speaking
Finnish / Slavonic-Speaking Orthodox
Georgian Orthodox
Greek Orthodox
Hungarian / Slavonic-speaking Orthodox
Latvian Orthodox
Macedonian Orthodox
Moldavian Orthodox
Assyrian or Nestoran (East Syrian, Messihaye (Christians)
Polish/Slavonic-speaking Orthodox
Romanian Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
Serbian Orthodox
Slovak Orthodox
Syro-Malabarese (Eastern-Syrian), Syriac/Malayalam-speaking
Syrian, Syriac-speaking Orthodox or Syro-Antiochian
Ukrainian Orthodox
And there are divisions in these subdivisions.
That is an excellent post, Mark.
Fundamentalist evangelicals violate this basic principle every time the put the printed Bible ahead of God, ahead of Christ, or ahead of the Holy Spirit
Some even Say, God the Father, God the Sone and The Holy Spirit (wthout calling Him God!), or that the Spirit proceeds from the Father by the Son! Clearly, even though they consider themsleves "tirnitarian," many Portestants are not even close.
The idea that the Son is somehow subordinate to the Father comes from seeing Jesus as being obedient to the Father and not realizing that He is doing that in His human nature. God does not worship Himself! Jesus submitted to the Father in His human nature. Literalist approach to the NT leads one into Arianism and other heresies, all of which seem to be present to some degree in various Protestants branches.
On page 2 of the May 14, 1996 issue of the Western Recorder, a local Kentucky Baptist periodical, is a report of comments made by Morris Chapman, president of the SBC Executive Committee at a gathering of Baptists from across North America. Another denomination’s top executive asked him to state an “irreducible minimum for an evangelical theology.” In response, Chapman is reported as saying, “I would have to say the word of God is absolute truth and . . . Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the Savior of the world.” This is a very “tell tale” comment. Chapman lists his commitment to inerrancy before his belief in Jesus Christ
Excellent example. Spiritual pride and rationalization define Protestant denominations. Bible first, everything else second.
The belief in the infallability of the printed Bible may be the worst heresy to affect the church today
Especially because we know that the printed Bible has been corrupted, redacted, edited, erased , etc. by human hands, delibertaley or accidentaly.
I will agree that God's word is inerrant. The catholic and orthodox Apostolic Church established by Christ Himself in 33 AD firmly believes that. God is inerrant! But we are not! Protestant fundamentalism is based on the premise that the reader of the Bible is rendered inerrant by the "indwelling spirit." That premise is rendered meaningless when one considers thousands of denomiantions that sprang out of that heresy.
That's your pre-Calvinist "you" talking, FK. Harley D will remind you that what, who and where we are in this world is ALL God's doing. Others, including you, will reminds us Orthodox/Catholic that God hardens those hearts He desires to harden and there's nothing they can do about it. If all is God's doing, then all the good and evil that we do is God's will being done, good or evil.
Herein lies the heart of Protestant heresy: in effect God is the doer of good, but God is also the doer of evil. There is no way around it, FK. Your acceptance of your sin as yours and not God's is inconsistent with Protestant theology. You are a struggling "Apostolic" in your heart.
Perfectly good question. I have no idea. :) I infer backwards that since He did it that way, and since our God is not a God of wasted effort, that it must have been necessary to accomplish His plan.
Again, it sounds like you believe that the Bible was a rule book that God had to follow.
As God is timeless, in a sense I would imagine that the Bible is sort of a history book (or diary) to God. He planned it, He wrote it, He accomplished everything in it. I don't have any notion that He needs to "follow it".
I know it is not you, but lately, I have been engaging other Protestants who appear to take the view that the Bible is MORE than a book. Someone quoted me John 1:1-2 to show that the Bible = God.
I appreciate that, and I would certainly never have any part of Bible = God. :)
Another person thought it was strange that I would say that the Bible is an "external thing".
Probably me. :) Maybe it's semantics, but if the Bible is God's own word then how can it be external? If I quote from an old speech of mine, then I would not say that I am using an external source.
Now, I get the feeling that you are presenting the Bible as a "force" that makes God give up His Son to satisfy ... I don't know, the power of the Bible, I guess...
Nah, the Bible is a recording of God's word. God's word itself has the power. The power always resides with and emanates from God exclusively. The organization of words on a page have no force in and of themselves.
I hope you can correct me, I am having misgivings about the directions this conversation is going. Please re-assure me that you do not worship the Bible or think it is God or possesses some power over God.
No problem. :) I assure you that I do not worship an inanimate object and I do not think IT is God. As such, IT cannot possess any power over God. :)
But WOULD he really be human without free will? It sounds to me like you've have God creating illusions of humans with the illusion of free will.
Of course he would really be human without free will as we are talking about it. As Harley intimated, where did God ever promise us that He would let us decide to "will" ourselves into Heaven independently from Him? This is His show, not ours. God is the potter and we are the clay.
I am sure that you are right that there have been several Protestant pastors who have fallen away permanently. That relates to one of my strongest memories as a counselor at a Billy Graham crusade. During his invitation, he specifically invited pastors who were not right with God. At the time I was amazed at the presumption, but he was obviously right. Non believers hold absolutely every station in life, including that of the clergy of all faiths.
I also agree that we can't know the exact paths of our lives to come. All we can do is know and be firm in who we believe, and take rest and comfort in knowing that He will keep His promises to us. While the math might say I could be a false believer, I don't worry about it. If what is actually in my heart turns out, in FACT, to be false, then I deserve what I get. By my own beliefs there is nothing I can do about it. :)
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - I John 1:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. - I Th 5:5
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:5
His Name is Alpha and Omega, the end being God's family in the new heaven and new earth. Or in common parlance, God is raising children.
After all, children learn by seeing, hearing, experiencing, doing. How would they know health without sickness, courage without fear, light without darkness, good without evil, etc.? And some kids, like Adam, have to touch the stove to know it is hot.
How glorious, how illuminating, how intimate we are in Him - when God does a good thing through us! Truly, I cannot imagine a better way to get to know Him, to love Him more, to trust Him more, to grow up in the family, in the body of Christ.
Conversely, I can see nothing glorious or illuminating in anything I do apart from Him. It is all loss. All filthy rags.
Perhaps those who are troubled by darkness want to flip to the last page of the book, advance immediately to paradise for a quick fix? But there are children yet to be born:
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:4-9
How glorious, how illuminating, how intimate we are in Him - when God does a good thing through us! Truly, I cannot imagine a better way to get to know Him, to love Him more, to trust Him more, to grow up in the family, in the body of Christ.
Conversely, I can see nothing glorious or illuminating in anything I do apart from Him. It is all loss. All filthy rags.
AMEN!
Orthodox Presbyterian has a great saying on his homepage...
"God created the Earth to train the Faithful."
Exactly so. 8~)
That's your pre-Calvinist "you" talking, FK. Harley D will remind you that what, who and where we are in this world is ALL God's doing. Others, including you, will remind us Orthodox/Catholic that God hardens those hearts He desires to harden and there's nothing they can do about it. If all is God's doing, then all the good and evil that we do is God's will being done, good or evil.
Harley and I are in full agreement as to God's "doings". :) We also agree that God does not inject evil into people in order to cause them to commit evil. My comment was carefully worded to say "on me", and designed to reiterate that we are still responsible for our own sins, regardless that the actions were ordained already. On the surface, this appears to fail human standards of fairness. That may be. Too bad. :) God does not owe us human standards of fairness. His ways are not our ways.
Herein lies the heart of Protestant heresy: in effect God is the doer of good, but God is also the doer of evil. There is no way around it, FK.
And that is exactly what my comment was intending to disavow. God is NOT a doer of evil. When God is artificially saddled with human traits and put under human standards, then it can look like that. However, since God is not actually subject to such things, the notion that He does evil does not apply.
Evidently some people are troubled that darkness (or evil) exists at all. But perhaps they are not yet familiar with God's permissive will?
Yes, I see it this way as well. On this very thread it has been postulated that Armageddon is a complete myth, that satan was only a loyal servant of God, and that the modern day notion of satan came from an un-Godly source. There seems to be a lot of denial going around in this area.
After all, children learn by seeing, hearing, experiencing, doing. How would they know health without sickness, courage without fear, light without darkness, good without evil, etc.? And some kids, like Adam, have to touch the stove to know it is hot.
Excellent point. God uses everything for ultimate good, even if it makes no earthly sense to us at the time.
How glorious, how illuminating, how intimate we are in Him - when God does a good thing through us! Truly, I cannot imagine a better way to get to know Him, to love Him more, to trust Him more, to grow up in the family, in the body of Christ.
Amen. It is such a blessing, every single time.
It is my belief that nothing that God does is "necessary" for HIM. It may very well be for us, but God certainly could have "accepted" a number of means of expiation for mankind's sins. I think dying on a cross is the ultimate expression of God's humble love for us. But being "necessary"? I think that makes God subject to some force that God must "necessarily" make something happen in a certain way.
As God is timeless, in a sense I would imagine that the Bible is sort of a history book (or diary) to God. He planned it, He wrote it, He accomplished everything in it. I don't have any notion that He needs to "follow it".
OK. Just checking.
Maybe it's semantics, but if the Bible is God's own word then how can it be external?
The "external" was in reference to the human...But even if this refers to the relationship between God and the Bible, the Bible is God's Words written down in a book. Do they have any more power than anything else that God created with His Word? ALL of creation is from God, so I would presume that ALL of creation, to include the Bible, relates God's Word and manifests it in a particular way.
I assure you that I do not worship an inanimate object and I do not think IT is God. As such, IT cannot possess any power over God. :)
Whew! That's a relief... I was getting worried lately that I had stumbled onto some secret Protestant tenant of their faith and was getting worried about this "bible worship" thing. As I said in the preceding paragraph, the bible is a creation of God just as any other creation. Worshiping it is idolatry.
Regards
Well, I think we agree more than I had thought previously. In the past, I had thought that your bible verse quotes and other remarks had made it clear that you do not believe you could POSSIBLY EVER fall, that God already has you marked as part of the flock and would ABSOLUTELY prevent you from falling away. The above paragraph is much more in tune with Scriptures and common sense.
Catholics believe the same thing, for the most part. We do not have absolute certitude that we will persevere until the end. If you read some of the lives of the saints, you will find they have a particular humility on this very subject. While we do not have absolute certitude, we have a moral certitude that God is righteous and will guide us through until the end, that God will place within us the desire to remain on the narrow road and will reward us with the promised inheritance at the end...
Regards
Their theology and liturgy is identical. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Who is teaching that? FK, find where the Orthodox and Catholic Churches teach that we get to heaven independently of God. Please do, or retract this nonsense.
I don't see how you can say something like this. HD clearly states that what, who and where we are is God's doing. That would include you, and Judas, and the Pharaoh, and St. James and BEV Mery, and every human being, who lived, lives and will live.
If everything is God's doing, then ours is not neither good nor evil. It's a theological corner that all monergists paint themselves into, and then chose to ignore it.
Nonsense. Reason must be free. Captive reason moves by necessity. Without free will, we are neither rational nor human, but animal.
“Their theology and liturgy is identical.”
If that’s the case then why 27 plus different denominations? Why not just “one” church?
“Nonsense. Reason must be free. Captive reason moves by necessity. Without free will, we are neither rational nor human, but animal.”
If that is so, then why the problem with each believer going to the scriptures alone with the Holy Spirit for understanding of the truth?
I’ve never really gone into Osee very far.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
(a) In the first part, Osee relates how, by order of Jahve, he wedded Gomer, a “wife of fornications”, daughter of Debelaim, in order to have of her “children of fornications”:–symbols, on the one hand, of Israel, the unfaithful spouse who gave to Baal the homage due to Jahve alone; and, on the other, figures of the children of Israel, who in the eyes of Jahve, are but adulterous children. The outraged husband incites the children against their guilty mother, whom he prepares to punish: while for the children themselves is reserved a fate in keeping with their origin. The first is named Jezrahel–the reigning dynasty is about to expiate the blood shed by its ancestor Jehu in the valley of Jezrahel. The second is a daughter, Lô-Ruhamah, “disgraced”–Jahve will be gracious no more to his people. The third is called Lô- ‘Ammi, “not my people”–Jahve will no longer recognize the children of Israel as his people. However, mercy will have the last word. Osee is commanded to receive Gomer again and to prepare her, by a temporary retirement, to renew conjugal intercourse–Israel was to prepare herself in captivity to resume with Jahve the relationship of husband and wife.
The second part of the book is the practical and detailed application of the first. Van Hoonacker divides it into three sections, each of which terminated with a promise of salvation (iv-vii, 1a … vii, 1b-xi … xii-xiv). We may accept this division if we also admit his ingenious interpretation of vi, 11-viii, 1a:–And yet Juda, I shall graft on thee a branch (of Ephraim) when I shall re-establish my people; when I shall heal Israel. In the first section he speaks almost exclusively of religious and moral corruption. The princes and especially the priests are chiefly responsible for this and it is on them that the punishment will principally fall; and as he speaks simply of the “house of the king” it would appear that the dynasty of Jehu still occupied the throne. It is different in the following chapters. In vii, 1a- viii, the political and social disorders are especially emphasized. At home there are conspiracies, regicides, anarchy, while abroad alliances with foreign powers are sought. No doubt Menahem was already reigning. And yet the religious disorders remained the principal object of the prophet’s reprobation. And in spite of all, mercy ever retains its prerogatives. Jahve will gather together again some day His scattered children. In the last section it is felt that the final catastrophe is close at hand; and, nevertheless, once again, love remains victorious. The book ends with a touching exhortation to the people to turn to God who on His part promises the most tempting blessings. An epiphonema reminds at last every one that the good and the wicked shall receive the retribution each has merited.
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