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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: HarleyD; kawaii

Which makes you wonder if the east considers their priests to be “another Christ.”


8,621 posted on 10/09/2007 4:29:26 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: "The Incarnation "must" have happened because God ordained it."

God is always free to exercise His will. All that happens happens by His will. It makes no sense that He would "ordain" Himself to do something He doesn't want. God is not predestined to do anything.

Aside from God being "predestined" to conform to His own nature, I'd say this sounds pretty good, Kosta. :) Part of that nature would include never needing to change His mind.

8,622 posted on 10/09/2007 5:28:25 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: irishtenor; kawaii
To: kawaii ***Protestants have no faith in Christ they have faith in french and german lawyers.*** Sir, you are making assumptions on personal faith issues. I ask you to please stop. You have no right to tell me or any other Protestant that they have no faith just because we disagree with you. Again I ask you to stop. NOW.

Thank you for saying this. I wholeheartedly agree.

8,623 posted on 10/09/2007 5:47:58 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; kosta50; Terirem
I suppose its all in what one considers “new”. It seems that the Reformers would argue the same thing, that the Holy Spirit was in their time doing a “new thing”, either that or that He went to sleep for 1500 years after Pentecost. In the West, there have been “new” theologies popping up for centuries. Its a problem for some of us, Athena. “The RCC corrupted early church teachings and sadly continues to do so.”Athena, do you believe this is also true of the Orthodox Church? I consider any doctrine 'new' that the bible does not teach. By teach, I mean that it is testified to by all scripture, and that it is not used out of context to teach falsely. The RCC allowed corruption in and it became corrupt. The Holy Spirit was alive and well then and now, teaching mens hearts, who then questioned the church's corruption upon their own peril. But as God says in His word, nothing can prevail against Him. And so, the reformation brought to light what the RCC had tried to keep in darkness. Men once again could have, free of charge, their salvation! The reformation was born of need. The need to right the wrongs and stamp out the corruption. The term is really a misnomer, as it was the desire of good theologians to reform the RCC, which sadly they failed to do. The RCC continues in her unbiblical practices to this day. A better name might be the catholic church revival. I believe that any church who does not teach and keep to these 5 principles will eventually fall into ruin. And they are; The Scripture Alone is the Standard- For the Glory of God Alone- By Christ's Work Alone are we Saved- Salvation by Grace Alone- Justification by Faith Alone. Athena
8,624 posted on 10/09/2007 5:48:56 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: kosta50
LOL!!! You are joking, right? No
8,625 posted on 10/09/2007 5:50:31 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: Athena1; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; kosta50; Terirem
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (Psalm 119:18; Psalm 138:2; II Tim. 3:14-17 )Sola Scriptura!

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (1CO 10:31; 1PE 4:11; REV 1:6; 2PE 3:1; EPH 3:21; REV 7:12; ROM 11:36) Soli Deo Gloria!

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time...For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. (1TI 2:5-6; COL 1:13-18) Solo Christo!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. (Ephesians 1:3-8) Sola Gratia!

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." (Galatians 3:6-11) Sola Fide!

8,626 posted on 10/09/2007 6:17:43 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: Athena1; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; kosta50; Terirem

“I consider any doctrine ‘new’ that the bible does not teach. By teach, I mean that it is testified to by all scripture, and that it is not used out of context to teach falsely....etc.”

Well, fine, but is the same true for the Orthodox Church?


8,627 posted on 10/09/2007 6:39:47 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; Dr. Eckleburg
Not knowing what you mean by ‘lectured’ I will simply say that God commands us to take our petitions to Him.

He has foreordained us to salvation, and that is biblical. Can you show me where it is not?

The Spirit of God moves the believer to pray. It is a natural desire of a believer to pray as well as an act of obdeience to God. Again, show me where God claims He has not foreordained whatsoever comes to pass or where he has not asked us to pray to Him?

In my last post I spoke to two different ideas and you now try to make them one idea. That is dishonest, or you need to go back and reread my post for better comprehension. The elect know they are saved by His word and His spirit. But we cannot know who the unsaved are. And that, Mark, was made very clear in my post. Again, more redundancy with your questions? We do not know who is saved Mark, save for those who confess Christ, only God does. Potential believer? Only in that WE CANNOT KNOW who they are. How does this concept so elude you? Have you read your bible?

The RCC teaches heretical doctrine. Praying to Mary as just one example. As to any of the reformers being pure...no one is pure save God.

What are the ‘old heresies’ that reformed doctrine resurrected?

As to reigns of terror we only need to think of Bloody Mary and the inquisition...or if Spain and England are too tame, how about France and St. Bartholemy Day?

8,628 posted on 10/09/2007 7:16:29 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; Dr. Eckleburg
Not knowing what you mean by ‘lectured’ I will simply say that God commands us to take our petitions to Him.

He has foreordained us to salvation, and that is biblical. Can you show me where it is not?

The Spirit of God moves the believer to pray. It is a natural desire of a believer to pray as well as an act of obdeience to God. Again, show me where God claims He has not foreordained whatsoever comes to pass or where he has not asked us to pray to Him?

In my last post I spoke to two different ideas and you now try to make them one idea. That is dishonest, or you need to go back and reread my post for better comprehension. The elect know they are saved by His word and His spirit. But we cannot know who the unsaved are. And that, Mark, was made very clear in my post. Again, more redundancy with your questions? We do not know who is saved Mark, save for those who confess Christ, only God does. Potential believer? Only in that WE CANNOT KNOW who they are. How does this concept so elude you? Have you read your bible?

The RCC teaches heretical doctrine. Praying to Mary as just one example. As to any of the reformers being pure...no one is pure save God.

What are the ‘old heresies’ that reformed doctrine resurrected?

As to reigns of terror we only need to think of Bloody Mary and the inquisition...or if Spain and England are too tame, how about France and St. Bartholemy Day?

8,629 posted on 10/09/2007 7:16:54 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; kosta50; Terirem
“I consider any doctrine ‘new’ that the bible does not teach. By teach, I mean that it is testified to by all scripture, and that it is not used out of context to teach falsely....etc.” Well, fine, but is the same true for the Orthodox Church?

Of Course

8,630 posted on 10/09/2007 7:21:52 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: suzyjaruki; Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; kosta50; Terirem
Sola Scriptura! Soli Deo Gloria! Solo Christo! Sola Gratia! Sola Fide!

You are my sola sister!

8,631 posted on 10/09/2007 7:27:20 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: irishtenor
You concider the Bible, God’s word, as an OUTSIDE FORCE? Strange.

STRANGE? ARE YOU THE BIBLE???

I am not the bible, thus, it is an outside "force" or entity...

I cannot believe I am explaining this to another person. On another forum, someone is using John 1:1-2 to claim that the Bible is God. Now, you are claiming to be the bible? What is it with you guys?

Regards

8,632 posted on 10/09/2007 7:27:24 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thank you for the engaging sidebar, dear jo kus! May God bless you all ways.

And you, as well. I hope that I have given you some food for thought.

Regards

8,633 posted on 10/09/2007 7:29:10 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: Forest Keeper
The doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints says that such a true Christian is guaranteed not to ever fall away permanently.

LOL! Here we go again on the "merry-go-round" of reformed Christianity... It gives me a headache just thinking about the circular argument that this "doctrine" relies upon.

How do YOU know who is a "true Christian"? People today claim that they are "true Christians", only to be outcast by the "remaining true Christians" who said the other guy was "never one to begin with" 10 years later! You call that a "guarantee"?

You are right that there will be some who claim the same thing as I do who will be lost. No getting around that. That's why I can't claim with Divine certainty.

Ah, NOW we are getting somewhere!

Regards

8,634 posted on 10/09/2007 7:34:57 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: Athena1
No

You must be. For there is NOTHING about the Reformed anything that is "as pure as possible this side of heaven."

8,635 posted on 10/09/2007 8:14:19 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: suzyjaruki; Athena1; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; kosta50; Terirem
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (Psalm 119:18; Psalm 138:2; II Tim. 3:14-17 )Sola Scriptura!

It doesn't say only the scripture. Besides, you don't know what scripture is. When this was written, "scripture" was a little different set of books than what you are reading today...

But I want to know HOW do YOU know WHAT is scriputre and what is not?

8,636 posted on 10/09/2007 8:19:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
Aside from God being "predestined" to conform to His own nature

Can God change? Can He asusme a different nature and cease being divine? I would say God is very much "predestined" to conform to His own nature. This conforming is however done in concernt with His will. His will and His essence are never at odds, as is the case with the fallen nature of humans.

8,637 posted on 10/09/2007 8:30:36 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; wmfights; 1000 silverlings
[FK to D-fendr on the idea that one Reformer can "prove" to another that he is saved by simply announcing it:] ... However, that wouldn't work for us either because there are some false believers. There are those who will claim "Lord, Lord", etc. So, it can't constitute proof.

It doesn't constitute "proof" because it's solipsism. Problem is, in and of itself, such "knowledge" of being "saved" is itself suspect and without proof internally. It could be God, a demon, or insanity.

Kosta, I "think" you yourself have said that your own faith defies objective reason. You can't "prove" that your faith is reasonable by human standards. Yet, at the same time you demand that we prove to you by human standards that we can have assurance of our salvation. Is this fair? :) How can you prove that you are not "insane" for following the teachings of your Church? :) You believe that the Holy Spirit reveals the meanings of scripture to your men first, and through them to you. We believe that God skips the middlemen. I'm not asking you to believe the truth of my claim to being saved for certain. And even though I claim that my assurance is based on scripture, at least you could maybe recognize that I'm using the same "unprovable" faith that you are for such a belief.

8,638 posted on 10/09/2007 8:52:30 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: jo kus
FK: "Repentance is necessary to take on life long true faith. It is not something we do piecemeal to satisfy a debt for each of our sins along the way."

Repentance is not a satisfying of a debt. That is your legal idea of your relationship with God coming to the forefront again. Our relationship with God is familial, thus, there is not a "debt satisfaction" when we repent.

It has nothing to do with MY relationship with God. Since you believe that each mortal sin yanks you out of Heaven again, I surmised that you must think that repentance for each settles the score so that you can once again gain entry. How is this NOT a "debt satisfaction"?

8,639 posted on 10/09/2007 9:27:54 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: jo kus; irishtenor
FK: "The Incarnation "must" have happened because God ordained it. I don't understand how any Protestant could think of using "grudgingly" here. God devised His plan exactly the way He wanted it. He would have to grumble against Himself. :)"

Why did God ordain it? Was He bound by some outside force, like the Bible? The incarnation did not have to happen. God CHOSE to save man in that manner.

I don't know why you would call the Bible an "outside force". God, in effect, WROTE the Bible. It's His word after all, not man's. ...... God COULD have ordered the universe such that man never needed saving. But He didn't. I presume that if the Fall of man was a given, that the Incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection were NECESSARY for His plan to save man. I don't think God would have chosen "overkill" given the circumstances (no pun intended). If God's justice would have been satisfied with a couple of rams on the altar, then I assume that's what would have happened. If man's salvation could have been accomplished with LESS than what happened, then Christ died in vain.

8,640 posted on 10/09/2007 10:02:36 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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