Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Perseverence, Kolo, assumes a couple of things.
First, we must decide if we believe in regeneration or rehabilitation.
Second, we must decide if God is fickle or decisive.
If we assent to regeneration and decisive, then we must come something close to a Calvinist understanding of perseverence.
God will put everyone in the correct spot. In the end everyone will be where they truly want to be. There won't be anyone in hell saying, "I wish I had listened to Aunt Mrytle so I'd be sitting on a cloud somewhere playing a harp."
God is, after all, a God of love.
” First, we must decide if we believe in regeneration or rehabilitation.
Second, we must decide if God is fickle or decisive.
If we assent to regeneration and decisive, then we must come something close to a Calvinist understanding of perseverence.”
Not at all, if we believe that God’s grace falls on the wicked and the good equally, Padre. In great part, Padre, this is why so many Orthodox councils have anathemized Calvinism.
I thought, in TULIP, everyone truly wanted to be in hell, unless God made them not want to?
Are you not only saying that God will program people to go to Heaven, he’ll also program the ones that He sends to hell to like Hell? Burning in sulfur forever in the pit made for the devil and his angels? So they’ll like it?
And you call this the God of Love?
Not so, Kolo, if we believe in a second birth, a regeneration, and if we believe it is not just a metaphor for someone really being determined to change their own life, then we must believe that God has done a supernatural act in that person who has been regenerated.
As for fickle versus decisive, we have another choice.
On the one hand, we have the Christian. This month the Christian is “saved.” Next month he’s lost. The following month, he’s saved again. The next month or 2, he’s lost. Then he’s saved again. It’s a crap shoot all the way to his demise. In which month will he die? Is he saved by calendar or saved by grace? Such a fickle God I cannot believe to be legitimate.
On the other hand, there is a hope that there be a God who offers SOME degree of Assurance.
I tend toward that God and that Assurance.
I see.
Thank you.
“...then we must believe that God has done a supernatural act in that person who has been regenerated.”
Orthodoxy would say that God has “done a supernatural act” for all persons, equally; indeed Orthodoxy would say for all of Creation, Padre.
“On the one hand, we have the Christian. This month the Christian is “saved.” Next month he’s lost. The following month, he’s saved again. The next month or 2, he’s lost. Then he’s saved again. It’s a crap shoot all the way to his demise.”
The Western reformed/protestant concepts of “salvation” and that of the Orthodox East are different, Padre. We don’t see any “saved/not saved” paradigm because for us theosis is both a process and an end. You are dealing with a problem we simply don’t believe exists, rather like that of Pelagianism which caused such a stir in the West and barely a ripple in the East. Our basic beliefs about our created purpose and maybe even more about the nature of man as opposed to his condition a) since the Fall and b) since the Incarnation mean that discussions like the one we are having here are, nowadays anyway, necessarily destined to go nowhere.
are you telling me there is no salvation in the orthodox church?
Don't be too hasty here, we could start a new dogma. Think about it. There are several women in my church with more than 8 kids. We could start a treasury of merit, so that the church could use the extra salvation that these women aren't using, to save the ladies who have no children.;)
Hmmmm...rather interesting. The TULIP doesn't say this. I don't know if I'm correct that everyone truly wants to be in hell. We are children of wrath but God saves us from this condition by His grace and mercy. What I do know is that unless God changes our hearts we will never wish to be around God. We may not wish to be in hell, but we certainly don't wish to be in heaven.
Like it or not, God sentenced everyone to hell when Adam sinned. God knew what He was doing. And He allowed the tree in the garden. So it's a little bit silly to say that God programs people to go to hell. We've already been sentence to this place. God saves (some of) us from this faith. The rest just goes.
Oh I know we do
As you know I was using your structure:
In the end everyone will be where they truly want to be. There won't be anyone in hell saying, "I wish I had listened to Aunt Mrytle so I'd be sitting on a cloud somewhere playing a harp."
But with:
I don't know if I'm correct that everyone truly wants to be in hell.
Ok, we can abandon that structure and I can re-ask the question:
Is it taught that their eternal fate is predetermined: That they may have be born for hell no matter what?
I'm asking this again in the context of Calvinist teaching to kids. Is this taught?
“are you telling me there is no salvation in the orthodox church?”
No, I am saying that you use the term differently from the way I do. I readily admit that I have only a limited understanding of what it seems protestants mean by being “saved”; a one time event, discrete in time so that one can indeed ask another “Are you saved?”, right? In Orthodoxy that sort of question is not asked because Orthodox theology does not look at theosis like the Protestant West looks at “salvation”. It isn’t a one-time event. If it isn’t a one time event then there is no saved/not saved problem to deal with. For us, the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent demonstrates the process of theosis and so one can have a series of ascendings and descendings, advances and slips throughout life here on Earth. After death, at the Final Judgment we are examined to see how much, if any, similitude we bear to Christ. How much is enough or how little too little we simply don’t know.
What a gamble!!
You must admit that John 3 does make salvation seem much more certain than that line makes it seem
But folks can be wrong about their assurance.
At least I’ve been told so. Other people can be they tell me. Not me, but the other guy can be wrong.
The elect peservere, if they don’t persevere, they weren’t really elect.
Logically it would seem you have the same, er, “gamble”. You’ll know for sure when you get there.
You appear to have a little flock being led by shepherds who claim infallibility and led by the HS, but they seem to be at a loss when it comes to understanding the scriptures, especially John. I’m sure it’s a nice safe little flock but it’s not the only one.
Well, the focus of my question really was whether or not you believed that God programs people to like where they wind up.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.