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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: 1000 silverlings

Perhaps I am.

Perhaps I am predestined to bring this point of view to all those with eyes to see and ears to hear.


7,321 posted on 09/27/2007 6:26:16 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: HarleyD

Well, in light of the “vain repetitions” verse, and in partial response to a previous question, I was wondering how many repetitions of the Lord’s prayer would be considered to be acceptable.

Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil.

These lines are primarily about God? Scant reference? Looks pretty comprehensive to me about personal supplication, pleading, asking, and begging God to change His mind. The Bible has a number of examples of people asking God for things and Him granting them both in OT and NT. In the example of the wedding at Cana, Jesus at first turns down Mary’s request to help out, then He changes His mind and turns the water into wine.


7,322 posted on 09/27/2007 6:39:58 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Forest Keeper

I suppose that if you believe that God has created a clockwork universe for His mysterious ends that He programs and runs the program through to completion, then that would kinda fit.

If you believe that God wishes all men to freely love Him, as the purpose of creating the universe, then it wouldn’t.


7,323 posted on 09/27/2007 6:43:02 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights and thank you for your encouragements!

I would never presume to say a Roman Catholic was not a Christian.

Neither would I, dear sister in Christ!

Maranatha, Jesus!

7,324 posted on 09/27/2007 7:56:37 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50
And when a person dies, do Calvinists say "Thank you Lord" and jump from joy?

When a christian dies, yes. My faith-filled father was suffering and I gave thanks when he died. His death was a blessing. The joy will come when I am with him again in paradise.

7,325 posted on 09/27/2007 8:21:57 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: MarkBsnr
If you believe that God wishes all men to freely love Him, as the purpose of creating the universe, then it wouldn’t.

Is this what you believe Mark? On what basis?

7,326 posted on 09/27/2007 8:25:31 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Er, if I may...

I was wondering how many repetitions of the Lord’s prayer would be considered to be acceptable.

One must repeat it - and meditate on it - to actually, spiritually, understand it.

But once he does, thereafter, his unceasing prayer to God will be:

that His Name be hallowed, i.e. to God be the glory

that His kingdom come, i.e. Maranatha, Jesus

that His will be done, i.e. instead of his own

The Lord's Prayer is spiritual, it is righteous (forgive us in the manner we forgive others.)

Eventually we understand it (indeed, Christian life) is not "about" satisfying carnal wants but loving God surpassingly above all else and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

7,327 posted on 09/27/2007 8:30:22 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr
begging God to change His mind....then He changes His mind

Does God really change His mind?

7,328 posted on 09/27/2007 8:30:44 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: suzyjaruki

Having buried three friends in the last month, all of them Christian, and being activly involved with the memorial services, I can say, undeniably, that we shout for joy in the midst of our sorrow.


7,329 posted on 09/27/2007 9:13:04 AM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor

Amen!


7,330 posted on 09/27/2007 9:18:25 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: irishtenor; 1000 silverlings

I look forward to dying well, and hope those who attend me will rejoice.


7,331 posted on 09/27/2007 10:02:46 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr; MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl; 1000 silverlings; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; ...
MARKBSNR: There are times when in my limited judgement that I believe that they depart from the belief.

Hmmm... So you wouldn't even regard us as Christians?

It's refreshing to see this honesty. I consider them to be among the lost.

I'm sure there are Christians within this sect, but when you learn how self promoting their institutional church is and how they have treated Christians who have refused to submit to their dictatorial practices you can't but wonder is their faith in an institution, or JESUS.

7,332 posted on 09/27/2007 10:06:09 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg
That is why I quit posting to him.

I wondered what happened. I have enjoyed reading your posts.

7,333 posted on 09/27/2007 10:09:03 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: wmfights

Yes, and if you ever do read their Church Father’s writings, you will read, though it will be passionately denied, that the “Church” saves, (they themselves save themselves, essentially,) and the only way to Jesus (who apparently didn’t atone completely for sin on the cross and needs their help) is through the Virgin Mary.


7,334 posted on 09/27/2007 10:12:48 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; HarleyD; MarkBsnr
Eventually we understand it (indeed, Christian life) is not "about" satisfying carnal wants but loving God surpassingly above all else and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

Amen!

I've told this story before but it makes this mother's heart swell every time I remember it, so I'll offer it one more time.

In one of my son's public high school literature classes the assignment was to read some chapters of the Bible (as "religious fiction," no doubt). That night I went to his room and found him reading the Bible and his face was streaked with tears. I asked what was wrong.

He looked up and said, "I'm reading the Sermon on the Mount. I get it now. I get it."

There are few memories more sweet to me than that one. God graced me with actually seeing the power of His word as the Holy Spirit moved my son to a deeper, truer knowledge of Him and His plan for his life as a Christian.

That is the power of prayer.

"He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.

The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.

Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD." -- Psalm 115:13-18


7,335 posted on 09/27/2007 10:13:27 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Powerful testimony Doctor!


7,336 posted on 09/27/2007 10:18:02 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What a beautiful, powerful testimony! Thank God for your son - and for you.

And thank you for the awesome Scripture of assurance!

7,337 posted on 09/27/2007 10:19:53 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; wmfights; 1000 silverlings; Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; suzyjaruki; irishtenor; ..
I suppose that if you believe that God has created a clockwork universe for His mysterious ends that He programs and runs the program through to completion, then that would kinda fit.

While I realize you're writing in hyperbole, what would be wrong with a world where God is in control?

Do you not trust God to resolve everything to His good pleasure?

Do you doubt that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28)?

Do you really imagine the maker of heaven and earth is going to end up disappointed and lacking what He desires?

If you believe that God wishes all men to freely love Him, as the purpose of creating the universe, then it wouldn't.

No man can "freely" love God of his own ability or else what was Adam's fall? Just a stumble? Or a true change in man's nature from innocent to sinner?

Why did God permit the fall if it wasn't to illustrate a great truth about His creation -- that all men are fallen and none seeks God unless and until God quickens his conscience and renews his mind and regenerates his heart, and gives him new eyes and new ears -- all by the work of the Holy Spirit alone because of Christ's atoning work alone according to the will of God alone.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" -- Eph. 2:1;4-5


7,338 posted on 09/27/2007 10:37:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HarleyD
It simply doesn't address the issue about who gives us our faith.

Of course it does. It just isn't Calvinist enough for you.

7,339 posted on 09/27/2007 10:45:44 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Forest Keeper

How do you know that God’s plan cannot be accomplished if man has free will?

God is omnipotent and omniscient; man has free will.

Somehow, you know better than He that this can’t possibly have the results He wishes.

I think I’d put my money on the omniscient one in this case.


7,340 posted on 09/27/2007 10:53:35 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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