Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>Being a member of a denomination will not save; calling on the Name of the L-rd will save

I had a feeling that was coming...LDS call on His name too...are you one of them?

6,812 posted on 09/20/2007 8:00:52 PM MDT by kosta50

Calling on the Name of Yah'shua is not in the plan of salvation for the Mormons.

I am a follower of the Christ; a Messianic.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua

[P-Marlowe]

But we believe that God knows what each and every one of us believes in his heart and don't need external signs for God to know who we are.

Then why are you baptized?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for the interesting conversation! May God bless you and guide you always, dear D-fendr.

[kosta50]

Calling on the Name of Yah'shua is not in the plan of salvation for the Mormons

Really? I quote from a Mormon site

Christ is so central to our faith that it is in the name of our church, The Church of Jesus Christ

The same site states:

All members of the Church of Jesus Christ accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and the only way to salvation and exaltation

Have you any evidence to back up your claim? Apparently the LDS think Christ is central to their salvation. They call on His name. By your formula that is enough to "save" them.

[kosta50]

Then why are you baptized?

Baptism is adoption into the Church. We do not walk around with a cross branded on our forehead as an external sign of such acceptance. God knows if you are His in your heart.

[Alamo-Girl]

When someone whose man-made "church" says that the early Church did not understand scriptuires and had it all wrong...yet could collect manuscripts you consider inspired, I need not go any further.

God should be praised for the Scriptures - for authoring them and for sending them to us.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. – Isaiah 55:8-11

The persons who were used of God to accomplish His will should not be proud.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. – Matthew 3:9

To God be the glory!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Baptists came out of the Anabaptist (Zwingli) movement which generally had a heaping helping of Calvin, and the Presbyterians came out of the Wesleyan movement who was noted for opposing Calvin.

--<<(((GASP!!!)))>>--

There are so many errors in that one sentence I think perhaps you intended to mislead people.

Extraordinary.

It's going to take some time before I'm able to read another post of yours and not see this one.

1) The Swiss Reformer Zwingli believed in infant baptism and was an opponent of the Anabaptists.

2) Presbyterians did not "come out of the Wesleyan movement." Presbyterianism as a denomination was founded in Scotland by John Knox (who studied under Calvin in Geneva) 200 years before John Wesley.

John Wesley may be had his disagreements with reformed theology, but John Calvin is most closely aligned with the Presbyterian Church.

[xzins]

It was declared by the Church. You accept it.

The trinity is acceptable doctrine because it is biblical. It is not acceptable because it was formulated. THAT is precisely why Purgatory is not acceptable.

Protestants are pretty easy to understand if you get that point.

[xzins]

Xenia -Being a member of a denomiation will not save; calling on the Name of the L-rd will save

K5 - I had a feeling that was coming...LDS call on His name too...are you one of them?

Rom 10:13 - for whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Has nothing to do with being LDS, which I know xenia not to be. It has to do with being biblical and knowing St Paul.

[xzins]

Paul, Paul and more Paul...are you a Paulean or a Christian?

Paul is a Christian.

[xzins]

2 Maccabees

2 Mac is known to be fallacious and is not scripture.

2 Mac is also too much to eat and not my favorite sandwich at all.

So, no matter how you cut it, something less than good is going on. It is about the events in 160's BC, but isn't written until, according to Jewish scholars, the period immediately preceding Christ's birth, well over a hundred years later.

[xzins]

the Presbyterians came out of the Wesleyan movement who was noted for opposing Calvin.

The only presbyterian I can think of who came out of John Wesley was George Whitefield -- and he didn't know he was one. )

So we continue to claim him.

And you all pillory him so badly that I've taken him as my Patron Methodist. :>

[Forest Keeper]

You see a toddler deciding whether or he or she can make the ascent up a book case, and you see unabashed and unreserved focus. So should we be in our love for the Lord! Pedal to the metal, ninety to nothing, let 'er rip!

Amen! Single mindedness. No abandon. No fear. No over analysis. Pure bliss. :)

[HarleyD]

Well, I hadn't expected that reply from a person of the Reformed persuasion. If it is true, that is good to hear, with the caveat that there is no repentance without grace from above. I imagine you'd agree, since you posted the pertinent Scriptures.

Every Christian (well almost) understand one must repent. What the scriptures tells us is that God must be the author of bringing us to repentance. The fact that all men do not come to repentance's is another indication that God does not bring all men to repentance.

As Augustine stated; "Command what you will, and grant what you command." God has commanded all men to repent. God must also grant men the ability to repent.

People fail to understand that it is God's will that drives everything. As James stated:

Jas 4:15-16 Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.

Something we should all ponder.

[Forest Keeper]

Marlowe: "I didn't think you believed in the devil."

Kosta: "The ancient Jews don't believe in the devil, PM. The idea of the devil is a latter-day occurrence in Judaism, influenced by Zoroastrianism and accepted by apocalyptic Jewish groups. The NT references to the devil come from "Apocrypha" which you Protestants reject. I have unanswered questions regarding the devil. I think there is one in every one of us."

Well, apparently the Orthodox Church has no problem with the concept of the devil being a real and distinct entity. Here is the introduction to an article about Exorcism in the Orthodox Church by Rev. George C. Papademetriou, Ph.D. I feel like I've posted this before, but no matter :) :

"The Doctrine of Evil -- To understand the Orthodox view and practice of exorcism, one must know the Orthodox presuppositions of evil and its doctrine of Satan. The patristic evidence points to the fact that the cause of evil in the world is the devil. The devil was created by God as an angel, who was free, and as a free agent chose to oppose the plan of God. That is, the devil is a fallen angel. Satan is not evil by nature, but by will and action. In Satan there is no truth whatsoever; he is absolute falsehood and deception. Satan is not just a negation or deprivation of good, but a positive force with free will that always chooses evil. The devil has the ability to recognize divine power, as in the incident of recognizing Christ as the Son of God (Matt. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-3). Satan has under his leadership legions and invisible powers, with their own "satanic teachings." The devil and evil spirits know that God exists and recognize true and devoted Christians, but pious Christians discern the plans of the devil. The devil, however, constantly employs every method of deception to enslave man to satanic forces and causes rebellion against God. He is the cause of corruption and disorder, a parasitic power in the world that will ultimately be destroyed by the power of God in the "last days." Because there is no compromise between God and the devil, the struggle will continue until the end.

The Orthodox doctrine of God is that He is eternal, uncreated and incorporeal. All other creatures, both visible and invisible, were created by God as free. The power of the devil will ultimately be destroyed by the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of creation. Salvation from all evil will be attained by obedience to God and His plan. This world is a battleground between the acceptance of good and evil. It must be pointed out that the world as the creation of God is not evil. What is evil is the satanic power, destroyed by the power of the cross and the resurrection of Christ.

Dr. Papademetriou is apparently authorized to represent the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. He clearly disagrees with the ancient Jews you were referencing. In addition, he would agree with you that there is a "devil" inside all humans, but they are exorcised at Baptism, according to him:

"The demonic possession of individuals and even of objects, has been accepted by the Orthodox Church today in the Sacrament of Baptism, in exorcising satanic powers in the case of the evil eye (vaskania), and in exorcising the devil in the case of a possessed person. In the early Church exorcisms were performed by a person especially trained and appointed to pray to drive out evil from those about to be baptized."

This is pretty weird sounding to me, but if you'd like to comment ... :)

[HarleyD]

Sounds like a question my 60 year old Dad asked me.

Smart Dad. ;O)

[Forest Keeper]

... God kills God to satisfy His divine justice. Protestantism 101. Imagine how important we must be if we can offend the almighty God!

This, coming from a guy who says that man is so important that he determines his own eternal destiny, thus overruling God's declared wishes in most cases? Now fair is fair... :) WE never say that man can overrule God. Who REALLY thinks that man is more important?

[Forest Keeper]

WM: "Kosta have you, as an adult, acknowledged to GOD your sinful nature and asked JESUS to save you?"

Kosta: "You mean to wipe my sins clean so that I can go around sinning all I want 'cause God paid my bill for all times? LOL!"

This is not the answer of one who has done so. My best guess is that you would say that this is taken care of through infant baptism, and the maintenance of confession and absolution by priests. Therefore, there is no need to go directly to Christ in prayer and ask for forgiveness and salvation. That is what the Church is for.

[HarleyD]

I guess that that the practice of cherry picking the Bible and not taking the verses surrounding the one selected is not just limited to the Bible.

I love that argument about the cherry picking; and not simply because I'm fond of cherries. It's simply a method of deflecting any type of argument with what is being stated. If I quoted:
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And said that no man can come to our Lord Jesus unless God the Father draws him, all I will hear is "you're cherry-picking verses again". It seems to me there is nothing about picking any cherries here. God the Father draws us and our Lord Jesus will raise those who the Father has drawn, up. The text is clear regardless of the "Yes, but...".

Do you see? It grants that indulgences exist and have existed right from the early Church; they were administered corruptly and that this corruption stops now. Period.

Sure I see it. I see the infallible Pope made an mistake in issuing indulgences for payment. I see the Council said this infallible Pope was corrupt. And, since this proclamation was made about 100+ years after the fact, it is also an indictment on the Church at the time. Infallibility isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

And as for baptism? We think so highly of our children that we lead them to the Holy Spirit as soon as is practicably in order that the Holy Spirit comes into them and leads them to everlasting life. We do not think so poorly of human beings that we chortle with glee to think that WE are of the ELECT and YOU are NOT, and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it.

Baptism has nothing to do with election. To a Baptist, baptism symbolically portrays our death in Christ and our newness of life (What Baptism Portrays). It isn't for show but a sacred ordinance ordained by our Lord Jesus, Himself.

Some of our Presbyterian friends view baptism in much the same way as the Catholics. Baptists believe baptism should be left to those who wish to portray their new life in Christ, following the Lord in His ordiance. We don't baptize infants but we do have a dedication ceremony for them where we dedicate them to the Lord similar to your baptism. I'm pinging my fellow Baptist wmfight to this to ensure I have accurately stated this. While I disagree with baptizing infants, I find nothing wildly wrong with the concept.

What I do find interesting is that you do not consider yourself part of the "elect". The New Testament uses this word 17 times in reference to Christians.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

I suppose that I could post all 17 verses but then I would, once again, be accused of "cherry-picking" verses.

[HarleyD]

So we continue to claim him. And you all pillory him so badly that I've taken him as my Patron Methodist.

Now, now. Let's not forget there are more Calvinistic Methodists than Whitefield. I suspect they're still around but they've gone into hiding. ;O)