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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: wmfights

There certainly was evidence of the identification and the excommunication of heretics before Trent. That was part of the Church’s job; it was a great part of what she had to do.


4,161 posted on 08/25/2007 12:25:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; hosepipe; MarkBsnr
Some of the Christians persecuted by the RCC were:

The Paulicians The Albigenses The Paterines The Petrobrussians The Henricians The Arnoldists The Hussites The Waldenses The Annabaptists

Amen. Don't forget the Huguenots...

And all that persecution could have been avoided had they simply chosen to remain illiterate --- Biblically illiterate.

4,162 posted on 08/25/2007 12:35:45 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: MarkBsnr

I’m just enjoying the audacity someone had to put “Foxes Book of Martyrs” on a website called “sacred-texts.com.”


4,163 posted on 08/25/2007 12:40:16 PM PDT by Petronski (Why would Romney lie about Ronald Reagan's record?)
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To: Uncle Chip
[.. And all that persecution could have been avoided had they simply chosen to remain illiterate --- Biblically illiterate. ..]

LoL...

4,164 posted on 08/25/2007 12:43:53 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Petronski

What about Foxes work do you not like?..


Foxes Book of Martyrs..
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/index.htm


4,165 posted on 08/25/2007 12:48:00 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: wmfights

Shall we take them in order?

The Paulicians: The cardinal point of the Paulician heresy is a distinction between the God who made and governs the material world and the God of heaven who created souls, who alone should be adored. They thought all matter bad. It seems therefore obvious to count them as one of the many neo-Manichaean sects, in spite of their own denial and that of modern writers (Ter-Mkrttschian, Conybeare, Adeney, loc. cit.; Harnack, “Lehrbuch der Dogmengeschicte”, Tübingen, 1909, II, 528). But there is a strong Marcionite element too. They rejected the Old Testament; there was no Incarnation, Christ was an angel sent into the world by God, his real mother was the heavenly Jerusalem. His work consisted only in his teaching; to believe in him saves men from judgment. The true baptism and Eucharist consist in hearing his word, as in John, iv, 10.

The Albigenses: The Albigenses asserted the co-existence of two mutually opposed principles, one good, the other evil. The former is the creator of the spiritual, the latter of the material world. The bad principle is the source of all evil; natural phenomena, either ordinary like the growth of plants, or extraordinary as earthquakes, likewise moral disorders (war), must be attributed to him. He created the human body and is the author of sin, which springs from matter and not from the spirit. The Old Testament must be either partly or entirely ascribed to him; whereas the New Testament is the revelation of the beneficent God. The latter is the creator of human souls, which the bad principle imprisoned in material bodies after he had deceived them into leaving the kingdom of light. This earth is a place of punishment, the only hell that exists for the human soul. Punishment, however, is not everlasting; for all souls, being Divine in nature, must eventually be liberated. To accomplish this deliverance God sent upon earth Jesus Christ, who, although very perfect, like the Holy Ghost, is still a mere creature. The Redeemer could not take on a genuine human body, because he would thereby have come under the control of the evil principle. His body was, therefore, of celestial essence, and with it He penetrated the ear of Mary. It was only apparently that He was born from her and only apparently that He suffered. His redemption was not operative, but solely instructive. To enjoy its benefits, one must become a member of the Church of Christ (the Albigenses). Here below, it is not the Catholic sacraments but the peculiar ceremony of the Albigenses known as the consolamentum, or “consolation,” that purifies the soul from all sin and ensures its immediate return to heaven. The resurrection of the body will not take place, since by its nature all flesh is evil.

The name Anabaptists, etymologically applicable, and sometimes applied to Christian denominations that practise re-baptism is, in general historical usage, restricted to those who, denying the validity of infant baptism, became prominent during the great reform movement of the sixteenth century. The designation was generally repudiated by those to whom it was applied, as the discussion did not centre around the question whether baptism can be repeated, but around the question whether the first baptism was valid. The distinctive principles upon which Anabaptists generally agreed were the following:

They aimed at restoring what they claimed to have been primitive Christianity. This restoration included the rejection of oaths and capital punishment and the abstention from the exercise of magistracy.
In a more consistent manner than the majority of Protestant reformers, they maintained the absolute supremacy and sole sufficiency of the canonical Scriptures as a norm of faith. However, private inspiration and religious sentiment played an important role among them.
Infant baptism and the Lutheran doctrine of justification by faith alone were rejected as without scriptural warrant.
The new Kingdom of God, which they purposed to found, was to be the reconstruction, on an entirely different basis, of both ecclesiastical and civil society. Communism, including for some of them the community of women, was to be the underlying principle of the new state.
The question of the validity of baptism appears in two great phases in ecclesiastical history. The first controversy raged at an early date (third and fourth centuries) and regarded the minister of the sacrament (baptism conferred by heretics). It was at a much later date that the second discussion originated, in which the subject of infant baptism was the point controverted. In the eleventh and twelfth centuries the Petrobrusians rejected infant baptism and they and many subsequent medieval heretics (Henricians, Waldenses, Albigenses, and Bohemian Brethren) held views resembling in some respects the tenets of Anabaptists. There is, however, little if any historical connection between the Anabaptists and those earlier sects. Luther’s principles and examples exercised more influence over the new movement. Private interpretation of the Scriptures, however, and inward teaching by the Holy Ghost could be claimed by any individual, and logically led to the extreme Anabaptist views.

Arnold of Brescia was a rabble rouser and an agitator against the Church, but a minor league agitator. According to him, the Church had become corrupt in the persons of covetouss and simoniacal priests, bishops, and cardinals, and was no longer the true Church. “The pope,” he says, “is no longer the real Apostolicus, and, as he does not exemplify in his life the teachings of the Apostles, there is no obligation of reverence and obedience towards him.” The unworthy clergy lose the right of administering the sacraments, and the faithful need no longer confess” to them. It is sufficient that they confess to one another. His disciples, i.e. those whom the thirteenth-century documents call the Arnoldists, or Arnaldists, taught other errors no less serious, for which, however, Arnold cannot justly be held responsible.

These are not Christian Churches; they are heretical sects. Many of their heresies are being repeated upon these boards today. If the Church does not enforce scriptural and doctrinal purity, then we are going to wind up with thousands of differing churches, each proclaiming a gospel often in opposition to another.

Only Satan wins; Christianity loses and so do all those poor bastards whose ears are ringing from the din.


4,166 posted on 08/25/2007 12:48:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Petronski

Just a manner of fuelling a fire whose combustable materials are constantly running low.

My reading of it, is that the early Christian martyrs are reasonably well documented. The few chapters that deal with opposition to the Catholics are hysterical and shrill and bereft of much of the specific documentation that went in the early chapters.

They appeal to emotion; not to the intellect. How I would characterize the appeal of the Reformation to the masses; the appeal of the Reformation to the upper class was wealth and power.


4,167 posted on 08/25/2007 12:56:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: hosepipe
Especially if your faith in the “church” and not the bible.. The church being people, appointed officials..

I agree.

As Christians we should always strive to resolve our differences peacefully.

4,168 posted on 08/25/2007 1:05:48 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: MarkBsnr
The few chapters that deal with opposition to the Catholics are hysterical and shrill and bereft of much of the specific documentation that went in the early chapters.

Shrill, hysterical, poorly-documented or entirely-undocumented, crafted to propagandize and radicalize rather than inform, untrustworthy, exaggerated, etc. Much like the Protocols in their intent to foment distrust and hate.

4,169 posted on 08/25/2007 1:06:06 PM PDT by Petronski (Why would Romney lie about Ronald Reagan's record?)
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To: MarkBsnr
[.. If the Church does not enforce scriptural and doctrinal purity, then we are going to wind up with thousands of differing churches, each proclaiming a gospel often in opposition to another. ..]

Thats Exactly what makes one a Protestant..
Protesting against scriptural heresy and cultism.. i.e. RCC
AND WHY Sola Scriptura is important.. You know... guarding against CULTS..

Unfortunately Protestant cults and so-called Orthox cults abound..
Cults are self sorting Sheep Pens(John ch10)..
Absolute genius on Gods part.. I would say...

For.... those that follow Jesus voice are the FREE Sheep..

4,170 posted on 08/25/2007 1:11:18 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MarkBsnr
There certainly was evidence of the identification and the excommunication of heretics before Trent. That was part of the Church’s job; it was a great part of what she had to do.

Clearly not Christian behavior and I would say those that defend it should examine their relationship with our LORD and SAVIOUR.

4,171 posted on 08/25/2007 1:13:49 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg; hosepipe; MarkBsnr
And all that persecution could have been avoided had they simply chosen to remain illiterate --- Biblically illiterate.

It is the history nobody wants to recognize. It's so much easier to act as though it never happened.

4,172 posted on 08/25/2007 1:17:30 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: wmfights
[.. As Christians we should always strive to resolve our differences peacefully. ..]

True righteous anger should be slow merged with forgivness..
But For the grace of God, we all would be in some kind of Cargo Cult..

4,173 posted on 08/25/2007 1:17:38 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MarkBsnr
These are not Christian Churches; they are heretical sects. Many of their heresies are being repeated upon these boards today. If the Church does not enforce scriptural and doctrinal purity, then we are going to wind up with thousands of differing churches, each proclaiming a gospel often in opposition to another.

Is the GOD you worship different than mine? The Son of my GOD can kill with a word, or look from his eyes. My GOD can sort it out. The indwelling HOLY SPIRIT is not to be trifled with either.

Also, GOD has given us the SCRIPTURES to serve as a guide.

Only Satan wins; Christianity loses and so do all those poor bastards whose ears are ringing from the din.

Who is doing Satan's work. Those seeking a better understanding of SCRIPTURE, a fuller relationship with our LORD, or those that would put them to death for the sake of their exclusive view of doctrinal purity. The latter group sure looks like the Islamists today doesn't it.

4,174 posted on 08/25/2007 1:28:14 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Forest Keeper

I thought that with lawyers, that all men are innocent, until proven penniless. :)


4,175 posted on 08/25/2007 1:55:38 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Actually, Dr. E, if you read the motives and the reasons behind the flocking of the German, and then the English and other European nobles to the Reformation was power, pure and simple.

They wanted local control bereft of what they saw as an interfering temporal ruler in Rome.


4,176 posted on 08/25/2007 1:58:02 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: xzins

Actually, that would be quite interesting.

I find myself on the side of folks in certain threads that I have vehemently argued against in certain other threads.

I’d suggest a 2-D matrix rather than a simple tally. Possibly a 3-D matrix, given the complexity of some of the beliefs here.


4,177 posted on 08/25/2007 2:00:26 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

I am, as always, astounded that we humans can banter around such figures so casually. Does it really matter if it’s 15 million or 50?

That’s a bunch of people who were killed. I believe that it was Stalin who said that if one person was killed, it was a tragedy. If a million people were killed, it was a statistic.


4,178 posted on 08/25/2007 2:05:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Forest Keeper; D-fendr
If we cannot make choices, we are robot slaves. There’s really no other conclusion. Either we are free to accept God or we are not. If we are not free, then we are controlled. If we are controlled, then we cannot sin, since sin results from wrong choices, not from following a computer program

Believe it or not, Mark, all this has been rehashed many times over on these threads. To no avail. The so-called Reformed are the ones who say that others are "blind" and "deaf" yet it is them who cannot see the plain truth.

Unless you can work miracles, the best thing to do is to leave them and pray that they be healed and comprehend that plain truth, because I still believe it is not their reason but spiritual pathology that drives them.

4,179 posted on 08/25/2007 2:07:16 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: hosepipe

I think that our conversation should remain quiescent for some time.


4,180 posted on 08/25/2007 2:07:49 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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