Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Amen, FK!
It's no coincidence one of history's two greatest reformers was a lawyer. Like you, John Calvin found in Scripture a coherence and logic that was internally sound because it was all predicated on the sovereignty of God to whom be all the glory.
Within the Scriptures (which the RCC worked to withhold from the people) Calvin rediscovered exactly what Augustine said was there -- the predestining will and wisdom of the Trinitarian God. Anyone who actually reads the Scriptures will find the same things, if God gives them new eyes and ears to see and hear the truth of who He says He is.
Who can read Ephesians 1 & 2 and Romans 8 & 9 and not see God's control of His creation on every page?
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:10-14"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Some of the Christians persecuted by the RCC were:
The Paulicians
The Albigenses
The Paterines
The Petrobrussians
The Henricians
The Arnoldists
The Hussites
The Waldenses
The Annabaptists
Amen. Don't forget the Huguenots...
It is simply a fact of history, as you rightly note, that the RCC used force and terror to compel belief, while the Reformation relied on the "Scriptures and the power of God."
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" -- Ephesians 6:14-17"Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
It puts things in context with the geopolitics of the age and place in which they occurred.
We’re going to have to have a “Sides” thread.
I’ve lost track of who’s on whose side.
And the arguments in which who is with whom.
“Which side are you on?” .... whaddayathink :>)
The researcher, Rummel, lays the witch burnings at the feet of the Protestants and compares them to the murder of heretics by the Catholics.
He says the Salem witch trials were much smaller than in Germany - and puts both in context with greater horrors such as the Mongols, infanticide, etc.
I know.... this happened in several places.. didn’t last long but the attitude that caused this edict is the problem.. Still a pretty much general belief probably.. Especially if your faith in the “church” and not the bible.. The church being people, appointed officials..
“burnings at the feet of protestants...”
Totaling about 7 Witches
and a few other assorted relative pronouns.
But who’s counting?
:>)
Rummels site is interesting.. Democide is quite a word..
Those who believe that Christ is the head of His church on earth, and those who think that office is held by "another Christ."
Those who think God wants us to fall down to the stock of a tree, and those who know the lie of that belief.
Those who think men are partly, occasionally, somewhat responsible for their salvation, and those who know that it is all of God, and always has been by the pefectly-accomplished work of Christ on the cross.
"Choose ye this day." And so we do, by the will of God and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
There are few reliable sources for democide statistics prior to the 20th century.
The Europeans were much bloodier than the Americans. Indian massacres, according to Rummel are way overstated. Most of them died off from diseases brought to the continent by the Europeans.
At one point, the author does write -- "In some cases I have dared to make my own estimates..."
Hmmm... 8~)
Wikipedia, being notoriously ultra liberal uses the highest numbers from Rummel's research without characterization. For instance, they go with the biggest estimate on witch hunts which he does not endorse - and do not separate the deaths of American Indians between massacres v disease but lump them altogether as if the deaths were intentional, etc.
I do question his footnote #15 here --
"After decades of scholarly research in the German archives, study of reports and official documents of other involved countries, and interviews with participants and survivors, the best estimates of the Holocaust dead still vary by over 40 percent."
I'm always leary of people down-grading the Holocaust. I haven't read yet if this is actually what he's doing, or if that footnote is out of context.
Overall, however, Rummel's taking on such an enormous task and doing so much documented work is really impressive. And the numbers are humbling, aren't they? It's a wonder any of us are alive at all after so much intentional blood-letting. All men are indeed fallen.
The Nazi Germany "low" is 15 million and "high" is 32 million - the 21 million is the "medium."
Maranatha, Jesus!
That sounds about right. And I'm glad he included the 800,000 slaughtered Tutsis over a mere few days. Genocide/democide is ever present.
Maranatha, Jesus!
Amen!
If we cannot make choices, we are robot slaves. There’s really no other conclusion. Either we are free to accept God or we are not. If we are not free, then we are controlled. If we are controlled, then we cannot sin, since sin results from wrong choices, not from following a computer program.
The omnipotent being’s manifestation on Earth (Jesus) has urged us throughout the New Testament (following the instructions in the Old) to act in various ways and to do. He further says that if we act and do as He instructs, then we will receive everlasting life with Him. Unless He is lying (an admission I do not make), then He is telling the truth.
Why does the apparent loss of moment to moment control bother you? After all He is the Omnipotent God Who has created all and sent His creation into motion. I think that a great gift He has given us is hope. Without hope, we are as the insects and plants are; simply occupying our days in a preprogrammed fashion until we die.
Fascinating account.
Thank you.
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