Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
That is not Scripture.
Try the real Scriptures that I provided you for once, and leave the deuterocanonicals and Artotelian philosophy alone.
By the way, Jerome as did the early church rejected the deuterocanonicals as inspired Scripture too.
“Sirach 15: 14-20
That is not Scripture.”
Its not, eh? Says who, some 16th century German or a group of post Resurrection Jews who wanted to “discredit” Christianity?
Of course. He gave every human a chance to be redeemed. He did not force His redmeption on anyone.
What makes you think man born of Adam has a free will to choose God?
Try Deuteronomy 30:19 "Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Had God not revealed Himself to man, man could not choose life. But our Lord and Savior appeared to us in human nature and gave us a choice. For a choice to be true the will to choose has to be free.
men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil [John 3:19]
Mankind did forget about God after the fall. The Bible is clear about that. And But in His love for mankind, God chose to reveal Himself to us so that we may come to Him by following Him on our own free accord.
The consensus patrum is not contradictory (itf it is consensus!); it is what the Church as a whole recognizes as truth. Not everything the fathers wrote is part of consensus patrum. The Church does not teach any of the writings that are not part of the consensus.
FK: OK, but what does that MEAN?
How about: darkness is loss of ligth. Death is loss of life. God is life and light of our souls. If we die separated from God, our soul is deprived of God's life-giving enegries and exists in spiritual darkness.
Knowing the Greek won’t help you here. Better to read what people who spoke Greek as their language understood the term to mean in a theological context.
The consensus patrum of the Eastern Fathers NEVER understood predistination in a manner like that of the Calvinists and some other Protestants. That idea is the sad result of Blessed Augustine’s years as a Manichean heretic which carried forward into his days as a Christian. The West’s notion of predestination is one of the primary differences between Eastern Christianity and various sorts of Western belief.
This snip, from +John of Damascus, is consistent with the consensus patrum. It is what The Church in the East has always taught:
“We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.”
The Bible uses verbal imagery to "depict" the state of separation of the souls from God in a way that we can relate to. We really don't know what death "feels" like. Thus hell is depicte din many ways, all of which have a common theme and that is that the eternal state of separation from God is something none of us would wish.
If all the Bible verses discussing this, and there are many, are ALL WRONG, then Orthodoxy is hoarding to itself some of the greatest secrets of Christianity
You are too busy reading literally what's in the Bible. These are allegorical references to heaps of fire of Jerusalem garbage dumps, to burning sufur lake, to cold and desolate place where the warmth of God enver reached (outer space where the tenperature approaches absolute zero?), etc. he comon threatd to all is true and clear: Hell is hell!
My guess would be that it is completely within Orthodox theology for a person's soul to be mortal one minute, then immortal the next, then mortal again the following minute. If true, doesn't that throw out the actual meaning of the word?
The wages of sin are death; and we sin avery day, every minute of ours life on earth. So, I would say you are right.
Yes they were. Your theology seems to suggest that infanticide, which some zealot claims was commanded by God, is justified. This is more akin to Muslim fundamentalism than to the message of Christ. Unfortunately, the OT is froth with such God-directed genocidal acts.
Christ revealed the Good News, not the "bad news." The whole focus of Christ's ministry is salvation, not condmenation; the Kingdom of Heaven and not Hell. It's an optimistic and joyful religion, FK. I highly recommend it.
This little snip from +Irish from Seattle:
God is in control. Get used to it.
I spoke of Ecumenical Councils as being considered inspired, and you asked me about the iconoclastic one of 754. I believe you know very well that the Church does not recognize that council as one of the Ecumenical (7th) Councils, so why even ask me such a question unless you were suggesting it was?
Iconoclasm is heresy, and those "churches" who advocate iconoclastic ideas are preaching heresy. Although iconoclasm was defeated in less than one century in large part thanks to the orthodoxy of the popes of Rome who lended their support to their Eastern brothers, Rome experienced its own iconiclastic heresy by none other than Frankish zealots on whose good will the popes of Rome depended heavily.
However, complete break with iconography did not occur until the Protestant deformation, which is also a heresy. You know all that because the nagture of your questions clearly shows that you know the material, and that you did not ask me that question as anything but a straw man.
In my response I said, as you quote me: " The "council" you are referring to is iconoclastic and it is no wonder that heretics of all shades would consider it an 'ecumenical' council."
Nothing in this repsone suggests that you beieve or subscribe to the heretical views of that "council" or that you yourself are in agrement with its pronouncements. You are mentkjoned in a pronoun because you are the source of the question, not of the belief expressed in that "council."
Whether you agree with that council is not subject of my response. This "synod" is considered as valid by all iconoclastic groups and, given that iconiclasm is heresy makes them heretical.
There is not a shred of ad hominem in my response. But if you took an offense, I assure you I was not making it personal.
I am not offended. The FR rules against personal attacks are clear and for a good reason. The purpose of my involving the RM was to reinforce the rules.
Irishtenor, had I been offended I would have forgiven you without an apology. But your good will gesture is valued nonetheless.
If it is allowed to say that Orthodoxy is idolatrous then by extension all Orthodox are idolators. The implication is there but unless someone says to me "You are an idolator" it is not an ad hominem. I think you are building straw men, Missey_Lucy_Goosey.
The Christian God does not preordain wickedness, other "Gods" notwithstanding.
***If it is allowed to say that Orthodoxy is idolatrous then by extension all Orthodox are idolators.***
You said it, not me :>)
God is not in control? Wickeness is beyond God’s abilities? God’s Bible says that he is omnipotent as well as omniscient.
Gos IS in control, dispite what man thinks or wishes.
Amen, MLG! And this is side by side with the saved no less! :) I don't understand it.
That's exactly right. It's interesting that we are often accused of not believing in the value of repentance since we see God as being all-sovereign. Yet, it is the Reformed view that repentance is critical both in the positive sense, and also to avoid something that is very very real.
Indeed, after that quote what else could anyone say? :) It doesn't get much clearer than that.
IT: No, predestine means we are destined to do it. Period. It is predetermined what will come about. Not what might come about.
Yes, quite correct. That which is predestined is predetermined by an ACT. In this case, by God.
STF, I think you may be mixing predestination with "foreknowledge". In the Bible, God specifically uses the word "predestine", and its forms, as a verb. If, as you say, predestination only refers to God knowing what we will do, then what is the actual act committed by God when He predestinates? Is it that He then knows what He didn't know before? Wouldn't that violate the principle of omniscience?
FK: OK, but what does that MEAN?
How about: darkness is loss of light. Death is loss of life. God is life and light of our souls. If we die separated from God, our soul is deprived of God's life-giving energies and exists in spiritual darkness.
Well, I don't really "think" I have any problem with those images, but I don't see how any of them couldn't equally apply to one actually and really existing in a place called "hell". That is why I'm asking what the difference is between existing in a "state" with no location, and actually existing in torment in an actual place that takes up space in whatever dimension it's in.
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