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To: Missey_Lucy_Goosey; stfassisi
Do you believe Jesus atoned for everyone without exception?

Of course. He gave every human a chance to be redeemed. He did not force His redmeption on anyone.

What makes you think man born of Adam has a free will to choose God?

Try Deuteronomy 30:19 "Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."

Had God not revealed Himself to man, man could not choose life. But our Lord and Savior appeared to us in human nature and gave us a choice. For a choice to be true the will to choose has to be free.

men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil [John 3:19]

Mankind did forget about God after the fall. The Bible is clear about that. And But in His love for mankind, God chose to reveal Himself to us so that we may come to Him by following Him on our own free accord.

10,483 posted on 11/05/2007 6:55:04 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Do you believe Jesus atoned for everyone without exception?

Of course. He gave every human a chance to be redeemed. He did not force His redmeption on anyone.

That being the case, then the Atonement was not an actual atonement but a potential atonement and not a finished work as Jesus said it was.

Romans 3:

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation(ἱλαστήριον- hilasterion) by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation(ἱλαστήριον-hilastērion) for the sins of the people.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation(ἱλαστήριον-hilastērion) for our sins.

"hilasterion", is an appeasing sacrifice by which the Wrath of God against sin was satisfied by the Precious Blood of Christ, just as the blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant did for Israel on the Day of Atonement.

Being a potential atonement leaves salvation strictly in the hands of men, and them being the cause of their own salvation, since it is ultimately their act which secures their salvation, thusly being an anthropomorphic salvation whereby man's will is sovereign rather than Theopomorphic whereby God's Will is Sovereign.

So, when Christ Jesus shouted from the Cross of the Work of Atonement, "It is Finished", you say, it was not finished, but is only a potential work that has to be completed by humans.

What makes you think man born of Adam has a free will to choose God?

Try Deuteronomy 30:19 "Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."

That does not say man has the capacity to choose God of his own accord.

Once again, you have to totally dismiss the passages I've cited already which clearly describe the human condition of those born of Adam as being DEAD, and having no desire for God in the slightest, but in reality being enemies of God, rejecting God at all points, and as Paul said, "are children of Wrath".

What that is, is a command by God to arrogant humanity to repent, and is a just command. Humanity since Adam choose to be their own god, to be the judge of what is right and wrong themselves, so God is just to command such an arrogant, self serving creature to repent. However, what man ought to do and what he can do are two very different circumstances.

I know it offends the sensibilites of those who have been influenced by the Aristotelian concept of free will to accept Apostolic teaching from the Scriptures, as I've cited Paul in Romans 3, thusly:

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

But you expect us to accept that man born of Adam is good, and does good by choosing God, all which contradicts the Apostolic teaching of the Scriptures.

Had God not revealed Himself to man, man could not choose life.

It's not the "revealing" of God to humanity that gives a man the capacity to choose life, it is the regeneration from above, being "born again", whereby God regenerates the dark, hardened heart and mind of a man from spiritual death whereby man seeks the affections of his sinful heart and nature, to a new heart and new mind and new spirit by which his affections are redirected toward God and by which he understands, believes and receives the Gospel of Christ.

You see, God has revealed everything a man needs to know about God in creation, just as St. Paul says in Romans 1.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Man has all he needs to know of God, and is without excuse.

But man born of Adam is born with the sin nature he inherited from Adam, and is inclined to sin, as Paul says, is a slave to sin, and dead. Just as Lazarus, when 4 days in the tomb could not respond in death, until Jesus spoke, and brought him to life, so the slave to sin is just as dead spiritually and cannot respond until God breathes new spiritual life into him.

But our Lord and Savior appeared to us in human nature and gave us a choice. For a choice to be true the will to choose has to be free.

Men born of Adam follow their will, freely, but their will is utterly marred by sin, and are indeed slaves to sin, so man freely rejects God by following the desires of his darkened, hard heart, and does so at every point.

Once again, as Jesus told Nicodemus, unless a man is "born again", he cannot even perceive or understand the Gospel, which is reiterated by Paul, thusly:

Romans 8;
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Those born of Adam are as Paul says, "of the flesh/carnal", which is death, an enemy of God, and cannot please God. Yet you are asking us to believe that those who are dead, carnal, enemies of God, of the flesh, can please God by choosing God while in that state of death, an enemy of God and self serving at every point.

Apostolic teaching of the Scriptures says otherwise.

10,544 posted on 11/06/2007 3:48:25 PM PST by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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