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The Primary Motive of the Incarnation (Orthodox, Catholic caucus)
Ad Orientem ^ | October 20, 2006 | Archpriest G. Florovsky

Posted on 07/15/2007 9:17:19 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary

St. Maximus the Confessor (580-662) seems to be the only Father who was directly concerned with the problem, although not in the same setting as the later theologians in the West. He stated plainly that the Incarnation should be regarded as an absolute and primary purpose of God in the act of Creation. The nature of the Incarnation, of this union of the Divine majesty with human frailty, is indeed an unfathomable mystery, but we can at least grasp the reason and the purpose of this supreme mystery, its logos and skopos. And this original reason, or the ultimate purpose, was, in the opinion of St. Maximus, precisely the Incarnation itself and then our own incorporation into the Body of the Incarnate One. The phrasing of St. Maximus is straight and clear. The 60th questio ad Thalassium, is a commentary on I Peter, 1:19-20: "[Christ was] like a blameless and spotless lamb, who was foreordained from the foundation of the world."

(Excerpt) Read more at ad-orientem.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: christ; incarnation; redemption; sin
Click here to see a 7 minute presentation on Scotus' thought.

St. Maximus the Confessor (+662), Bl. John Duns Scotus (+1308), St. Francis De Sales (+1622) and many others before and after them held that Christ had an absolute primacy in God's creative plan--a primacy not occasioned by sin. With or without the Fall of Adam, God's eternal purpose was that all things be brought under the headship of the Incarnate Logos. This is especially seen in the original Greek of St. Paul (cf. Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:18).

In the West this perspective has been largely overlooked and forgotten, especially since the Council of Trent when the theology St. Thomas Aquinas was utilized in defending the true Faith against the Protestant Revolt.

The thesis of the absolute primacy of Christ has come to be known, in the West, as the "Franciscan thesis" because of the Franciscan theologian, Bl. John Duns Scotus. His penetrating insights into this topic deserve more attention.


1 posted on 07/15/2007 9:17:23 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
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To: Kolokotronis; kawaii; kosta50; Salvation; Pyro7480; NYer; Alex Murphy; ArrogantBustard; ...
Ave Maria!

Ping... with an invitation to reflect and comment on the subject.

Benedicat vos Omnipotens Deus +

Pater et Filius et Spiritus Sanctus. Amen

2 posted on 07/15/2007 9:26:40 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Thank you for posting this. I am not a theologian, but this is a very interesting discussion on something which had never occurred to me before. Thanks again for giving me something on which to reflect and study.


3 posted on 07/15/2007 10:29:44 AM PDT by GrannyML
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To: fr maximilian mary; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


4 posted on 07/15/2007 2:53:32 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Why should this matter to us?


5 posted on 07/15/2007 3:45:18 PM PDT by SaintDismas (.)
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To: fr maximilian mary
His penetrating insights into this topic deserve more attention.

Yes, I think his insights too can add to our "understanding" (if we can call it that!) of the Incarnation a depth and resonance it would not otherwise have. (I don't include the lunacies of the Moonbat School in "insights" that deserve attention!)

6 posted on 07/15/2007 3:50:16 PM PDT by maryz
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To: Pyro7480; monkapotamus; ELS; Theophane; indult; St. Johann Tetzel; B Knotts; livius; k omalley; ...

Serious theology discussion here!


7 posted on 07/15/2007 4:14:01 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Frank Sheed
Frank J. Sheed (1897-1981): Sacraments reflect the Incarnation

Frank Sheed was an Australian law student who, after moving to London in the 1920s, became one of the most famous Catholic apologists of the century. He was an outstanding street-corner speaker who popularized the Catholic Evidence Guild in both England and America (where he later resided). Along with his wife Maisie Ward he founded the well-known Catholic publishing house of Sheed & Ward.

Sheed wrote several books, the best known being Theology and Sanity, A Map of Life, Theology for Beginners, and To Know Christ Jesus. All of his writing possessed a rare erudition and comprehensive grasp of Catholic doctrine. Theology and Sanity is a particularly helpful work for the apologist since every part of it had been, Sheed states, "tried out on forty or fifty outdoor audiences before I got it down on paper" (Theology and Sanity [Ignatius Press, orig. publish date 1946], 9). The result is an enjoyable and filling theological meal, served with the natural ease and clarity that mark Sheed's writing.

One topic that Sheed repeatedly emphasized is the balanced perspective we need to have of the material and spiritual realm. This is particularly important in explaining the sacraments to non-Catholics and poorly catechized Catholics. Many people (i.e., Fundamentalists and New Agers) downplay or even condemn man's physical nature, while others (secularists and hedonists) live as though their physical desires and impulses are of the utmost importance. But Catholic teaching claims the whole man is called to worship and to communion with God:

"Religion is the act of man-the whole man, soul and body. It is not the act of the soul only, for man is not only soul. . . . The supernatural does not ignore the natural or substitute something else for it. It is built upon or built into the natural. Sanctifying grace does not provide us with a new soul; it enters into the soul we already have. Nor does it give the soul new faculties but elevates the faculties that are already there, giving intellect and will new powers of operation. God-as-Sanctifier does not destroy or bypass the work of God-as-Creator. What God has created, God sanctifies" (Theology and Sanity, 300-301).

God uses material elements such as wine, bread, and water to convey supernatural life, or grace. He meets us where we are, as people composed of bodies and souls. "The sacramental principle, continually reminding man of his body, will keep his feet firmly planted upon the ground and destroy pride in its strongest root; sanctifying his body will make it the fit partner of a soul indwelt by God. The giving of supernatural life by way of sacrament, then, corresponds with the structure of man" (Theology and Sanity, 301).

The link between the Incarnation, our human nature, and the sacraments is critical in speaking with Protestants. By emphasizing that humans are not just disembodied spirits, but also flesh and blood-just as our Savior was also flesh and blood-we can begin to point them towards a fuller appreciation of all that God has done for us: He "emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant . . . being made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7).

Disclaimer: The post made herewith is for the purposes of information and discussion only and is not to be interpreted, read, or construed as intended to induce, invite, cajole, compel, or influence in any manner whatsoever any person of whatever Confession reading the aforesaid post or participating in the aforesaid discussion to join, attend, inquire, contemplate, believe, or concur with the Roman Catholic Church or any of the other 22 (twenty-two) Rites of the Church aforesaid. The party/ies posting disclaim, reject, and abjure responsibility to said persons, Free Republic, and/or its Moderators for any Acts of God by which the Holy Spirit or another Person of the Holy Trinity induces, persuades, or influences the persons aforesaid to seek such information on their own accord through Divine Intervention or by the process hereby denominated "sanctifying grace." The party/ies posting warrant that this is not his/her responsibility or intent and arises from a Power that cannot be controlled by him or her in this life or hereafter. This disclaimer cannot be revoked as it is not governed by the civil or criminal, statutory or common law of the United States of America or any other governmental entity and is the sole responsibility of Divine Intervention.

8 posted on 07/15/2007 4:36:22 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Wow! That was a clear, unbiased, well-documented article introducing the topic! I have been studying the position for two years now and I learned some useful points. I am surprised that St Thomas could not find evidence in Scripture for the Absolute Primacy. I certainly don’t claim to be holier or more intelligent/ enlightened than he is, but I see VERY strong evidence for it in Scripture (e.g.: Col. 1:15-20, Eph. 1:3-14, 1 Cor. 2:7-12, Rom. 8:28-30, 2 Tm. 1:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:23, Hebrews 10:7, Ps.39, Jn. 8:25, Gen. 1:1 with Jn. 1, Apoc 22:13 and similar passages, and possibly Ecclus. 24:5, Philippians 2:10-11, Gal. 4:4, and Prov. 8:22-9:6).
Let’s keep praying and meditating on this, and let us (on our knees) ask Jesus and Mary for enlightenment. May we always return to the Manger and to the Cross with greater humility, repentance, gratitude, fervor, love, peace, and joy.


9 posted on 07/15/2007 6:09:06 PM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: wequalswinner
Ave Maria!

"Why should this matter to us?"

Believe it or not, I think that is an excellent question. In fact I spent a whole session on it in my vlog series on the subject called The Cornerstone.

The reason it matters is that it changes our entire perspective of all creation. Before God created, did He will His Masterpiece in all creation, namely the Incarnation, primarily as a remedy for sin? Or was Christ the firstborn in God's eternal plan, sin or no sin? If the primary or exclusive reason for the Incarnation was Redemption from sin, then Christ exists for us, the greater exists for the lesser, the King of kings exists (insofar as His fleshly existence) for the subjects. Whereas if God's plan was that Christ be the King of all creation, sin or no sin, then we exist for Him, the lesser exists for the greater, the subjects (Angels and men) exist for Him. (see, for example, 1 Cor. 3:22-23 & Col. 1:16-17).

Now that matters and will affect our view of God, the Incarnation, the Virgin Mary, the Angels & Saints, and spirituality, psychology, evangelization, etc. St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Bonaventure, Bl. John Duns Scotus, etc. dealt specifically with this question because it does matter.

May the Lord give you His peace!

10 posted on 07/15/2007 7:13:26 PM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: koinonia
Ave Maria!

You wrote, "That was a clear, unbiased, well-documented article introducing the topic!"

Yes, Fr. Florovsky's article is excellent. Thank you for your Scripture references; they are most welcome.

As for St. Thomas Aquinas, although he held the opposite to be "more probable", he did actually hold that the position of St. Maximus and Bl. John Duns Scotus was not only possible, but "probable". I deal with Aquinas' position and how he shows the possibility that if man had not sinned God could have become flesh just the same (see Cornerstone #3 and Cornerstone #4.

The writings of St. Thomas on this subject are very enlightening: "If man had not sinned would God have become man? and he, quoting St. Augustine finds many motives for the Incarnation which are quite distinct from man's need for Redemption.

God bless...

11 posted on 07/15/2007 7:30:34 PM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Thank you Father for trying to explain this to me. I still think it just makes a circle. I have always wondered at and treasured the impossible thought that Jesus was born for one purpose, to save the whole world, me included. But that first commandment about loving God with our entire being still satifies the “we are made for Him”, wouldn’t you say? Our whole purpose in life has always been that, hasn’t it? He is one of us now, the most wonderful thing ever to happen, bar none. Whether or not God would have come among us if we did’nt fall into sin and evil, really doesn’t matter to me, because what ifs never really matter anyway, do they? If so, how? Nothing can change what has happened, the past is the past. Guess I need to read your article and I look forward to it.

Please note that I’m not trying to disrespect your theory or questions about this conjecture Father, I just don’t see what it has to do with any of us trying to work out our salvation.

God Bless you forever, thank you for your holy ministry!


12 posted on 07/15/2007 9:28:27 PM PDT by SaintDismas (.)
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To: wequalswinner
Ave Maria!

With regards to what actually happened, in this sense the answer does not matter since we can't change what happened and since Christ did come as Redeemer to fallen mankind.

However, given the present economy of salvation, why the Word became flesh hinges on God's eternal plan and sheds light on the purpose, sin or no sin, of all God's creation. So this is not a hypothetical question as to what might have been had man not sinned, it is a question of why did what happened happen. Why did the Word become flesh--as merely a "band aid" for our sin? Or is there another, prior, higher reason in God's design besides redemption from sin?

If there is another higher reason, then that means that our dignity and divinization is found in the Word made flesh quite apart from any need for Redemption from sin.

At any rate, there are Saints, even Doctors of the Church, on both sides of the question--and Saints and Doctors of the Church who never dealt with the question. So regardless, we should all strive for holiness.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, catechesis means “to reveal in the Person of Christ the whole of God’s eternal design reaching fulfillment in that Person.” (CCC #426). That being the case, pondering God's eternal design in the Incarnation will only enrich our catechesis and make us more effective evangelists.

Pax et bonum.

13 posted on 07/16/2007 6:30:59 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: fr maximilian mary

Congratulations on the new website, Father. For those who are interested in the subject check out his site (text, videos, blog): www.absoluteprimacyofchrist.org


14 posted on 08/16/2012 1:38:45 AM PDT by koinonia
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