Posted on 07/11/2007 7:32:55 AM PDT by kellynla
Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released yesterday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.
The statement brought swift criticism from Protestant leaders. "It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity," said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 75 million Protestants in more than 100 countries.
"It makes us question the seriousness with which the Roman Catholic Church takes its dialogues with the reformed family and other families of the church," the group said in a letter charging that the document took ecumenical dialogue back to the era before the Second Vatican Council.
It was the second time in a week that Benedict has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church. On Saturday, Benedict revived the old Latin Mass — a move cheered by Catholic traditionalists but criticized by more liberal ones as a step backward from Vatican II.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
Totally true. This is why, for example, we believe that someone who goes into confession and performs the usual actions, but has no intention of confession in his heart, is not reconciled with the Lord.
“Hurtful”? Why because the truth is a bitter pill for you to swallow. He says it for your own good. It is good to hear what you need not what you don’t.
As far as the “infallibility” of the Bible, It is only as infallible as it’s interpretation don’t you think? Do you honestly think God wasn’t thinking clearly when He left the Keys to His Kingdom to a Church He knew would fail?
As far as your assessment of the Church’s inclusion of the Septuagint, approximately 300 Old Testament quotes are in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants LATER REMOVED. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:
Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.
Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”
Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.
Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.
Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.
Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).
Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew - thou has “established strength.”
Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”
I have many more. So your conclusions are incorrect.
I find it odd that any protestant that picks up a Bible yet denies the Authority of the Catholic Church, actually has to rely on the Church for the Bible. Jesus never commanded that the Bible be put together. He knew the Church would do so later. The Church is a teaching Church that spread the Gospel orally, so please do not tell me that peaople were damned before the printing press because they didn’t have a Bible. The canon they chose is correct and is a matter of faith. It took the Church many years to decide which ones belong. I rely on the Church Fathers for it and I am grateful.
“The Church’s preaching has been handed down through an orderly succession from the Apostles and remains in the Church until the present. That alone is to be believed as the truth which in no way departs from ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition.” Origen, First Principles 1,2 (c. A.D. 230).
‘But they, safeguarding the true tradition of the blessed teaching, which comes straight from the Apostles Peter, James, John and Paul and transmitted from father to son have come down to us with the help of God to deposit in us those ancestral and apostolic seeds’ Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1,11 (c. A.D. 205).
‘For us...having grown old in the Scriptures, preserving the Apostolic and ecclesiastical correctness of doctrine, living a life according to the Gospel, is led by the Lord to discover the proofs from the Law and the prophets which he seeks.’ Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 7,104 (c. A.D. 205).
‘Follow the bishop, all of you, as Jesus Christ follows his Father, and the presbyterium as the Apostles. As for the deacons, respect them as the Law of God. Let no one do anything with reference to the CHURCH without the bishop. Only that Eucharist may be regarded as legitimate which is celebrated with the bishop or his delegate presiding. Where the bishop is, there let the community be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the CATHOLIC CHURCH.’ Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Symyrnaens 8 (c. A.D. 110).
‘The apostles at that time first preached the Gospel but later by the will of God, they delivered it to us in the Scriptures, that it might be the foundation and pillar of our faith.’ Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1 (inter A.D. 180/199).
‘We believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.” Council of Nicea I, Nicene Creed, (A.D. 325). ‘But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures.’ Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 5,12 (c. A.D. 347).
‘Learn also diligently, and from the Church, what are the books of the Old Testaments, and what are the books of the New.’ Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 5,33 (c. A.D. 347).
‘Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the CHURCH, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him.’ Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,5,1 (inter A.D. 180/199).
‘For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us their writings? Would it not be necessary to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those whom they did commit the Churches?’ Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3, 4:1 (inter A.D. 180/199).
“Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church...those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth...” Irenaeus, Against Heresies 26:2 (inter A.D. 180/199).
“In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed in truth.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,3:3 (inter A.D. 180/199).
“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters...It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Preface V 20, 1 (inter A.D. 180/199).
Judging by these texts, it doesn’t seem like Jesus left ‘the body of believers’ does it? He founded a teaching Church with structure, Bishops, priests, deacons.
As far as “closed Communion”, it is closed to those who are not in communion with the Church and who are unaware that it is the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am sure you are Baptised, all you need is instruction and the Sacrament of Penance. After that, you can take Him in Communion once a day. And I sincerily hope you do someday since I can tell you love Jesus.
As far as the “infallibility” of the Bible, It is only as infallible as it’s interpretation don’t you think?
It's not a matter of interpretation... any essential point in the Bible is reiterated frequently, precisely to avoid any possibilty of misconstruing it. There can be no debate on any critical point of Christianity. There are more versatile passages, to be sure, but it's not on these that we hinge our theology.
Do you honestly think God wasn’t thinking clearly when He left the Keys to His Kingdom to a Church He knew would fail?
The first church "failed" pretty badly. They killed God. If you want to argue that God's church can't fail, you're contradicted by the bible. How many times did Israel, God's chosen people, reject God? The short of it is: God doesn't override human fallacies to accomplish His will, He uses them. The Bible has shown this again and again.
Would you honestly tell me that Pope John XII, who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife, was the ideal selection as stipulated by God divine? No, he was just some guy appointed by some other guys--fallible guys--under a false pretext, who made the wrong choice. I'm sure God still used that to His glory all the same, but the fallibility of the church in human hands seems very evident.
As far as your assessment of the Church’s inclusion of the Septuagint, approximately 300 Old Testament quotes are in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament)
I'm well aware of the the Septuagint's use in the OT... I do believe I already mentioned that. (Although your number is not exactly a fair portral... 'influenced by' is not the same as 'came from', and 'allusion' is not the same as 'quotation'). You will still note the conspicuous absense of any direct quotations from the apocrypha. And that stands without relevancy to my point, which I made quite clearly from the scriptures, that everytime Christ mentioned the scriptures as a body of text, it was always, without fail the Hebrew version, not the Septuagint. It's hardly surprising that Greek translation was referenced to a Greek audience. But I have shown you plenty of places where Christ references the Hebraic canon... give me a single instance where He ever talks about the Alexandrian canon.
It would be quite strange for Him to only endorse the incorrect canon, and never the correct canon, don't you think? So how can you argue on behalf of the Alexandrian canon?
which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants LATER REMOVED
Since you "rely on the early church fathers" I'm sure you will appreciate that the absolute earliest list of OT canon in use by the Christians is given by Melito, bishop in the church of Sardis, and he omits the apocrypha. Furthermore, his list is endorsed by Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea. So the earliest accounting we have of the canon, affirmed by at least two bishops, omit the apocrypha.
It's really not even up for debate whether the Septuagint was an inspired translation... it wasn't--it has known translational errors. This was recognized even early in the church by St. Jerome (translator of the Vulgate) who objected to the inclusion of the apocrapha, noting they were uninspired, but was forced by edict to include them in the Vulgate.
Here are some examples: I have many more. So your conclusions are incorrect.
What conclusions? First of all, you are building a strawman with bad translations. For example, "young woman" is indeed the literal Hebrew, but as a matter of speech it means "virgin." It doesn't prove anything if you neglect to translate the Bible's figures fo speech properly. Second of all, as mentioned, the Tanankh and Talmud are quoted just as specifically. So are you saying we are supposed to use all three versions? Or would you be willing to cede that Christ's varied quotations were more of an expedience to his audience (which was generally Greek speaking, but not always)? Third, as stated before, the Septuagint has *known* translational errors. So you're going to fall flat if you try to suggest that Christ's frequent allusion to the Greek text to his Greek audience was somehow evidence of its being an inspired translation.
Jesus never commanded that the Bible be put together. He knew the Church would do so later.
The scriptures up to that point were already collected in the Tanankh, to which God had ordained the Jews to preserve, so what would Christ have said, "I'm creating a new bible... it is exactly the same as the bible you already have."? And he did indirectly command the New Testament through His very commands to the apostles and Paul to testify on His behalf.
But much more notably, He never rescinded the Jews' authority over the Hebrew canon, which was given to them by God. So it remains that any effort to usurp that authority is contrary to what we know of God's will.
The Church is a teaching Church that spread the Gospel orally, so please do not tell me that peaople were damned before the printing press because they didn’t have a Bible
Indeed, Christ's grace is entirely sufficient, and neither scriptures nor church are required for salvation, but only faith in the Son of God, and in His resurrection.
It is not my arguement that scriptures are a form of salvation, but I do note that they are our supreme authority in matters of docrtine. In fact, it was through the scriptures that Christ proved His own authority, and through which He refuted the errant church of His day, which He frequently rebuked for observing human traditions instead of the scriptures.
You should also be aware that oral tradition in previous times was not something poorly retained... a telling of Matthew, for example, would generally require at least sixty-percent verbatim quotes, with some leeway for a bit rougher telling in the less essential parts. And it was only a few years after Christ's crucifixion that we began to receive Paul's letters, and, possibly the Gospel of Mark, so the dearth of actual NT literature was in effect extraordinarily brief.
As far as “closed Communion”, it is closed to those who are not in communion with the Church and who are unaware that it is the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am sure you are Baptised, all you need is instruction and the Sacrament of Penance. After that, you can take Him in Communion once a day.
The Catholic Catechism makes several prouncouncements of anathematisms which I understand to impact myself (as a non-adherent to certain doctrines), and it is further my understanding that to be so pronounced anathema leaves me cutoff from the church. Otherwise, I should be glad to make a sacrament of penance.
And I sincerily hope you do someday since I can tell you love Jesus.
I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, and would delight to receive communion--His final ordinance--in the company of my Catholic brethren, even as I acknowledge the unity of the whole church of believers. But pragmatically speaking, such an occurence will require this transcendance of faith to be acknowledged by more than just myself.
Your’re splitting hairs. If you do not acknowledge the authority of the Catholic Church that is your right. The Church has withstood enemies from within and without and it is only through the power of God does the Church stand today. It doesn’t matter how many blemishes you can point out, She is still the Bride of Christ and outside this ark, there is no salvation. The Church is Holy because Christ resides in Her. You seem desperate to find a speck in the Eye of the Church to justify your own beliefs. Your idea of a “body of believers” is not the concept of the Church at all and the Church Fathers can attest to that. The early Church fought against heresies from the very beginning, they fought these errors so that the truth will survive for us.
St. Augustine
“Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (ibid., 141:5).
Origen
“If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death” (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).
“Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church” (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).
“When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church” (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).
“Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you” [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark” (ibid., 73[71]:11).
“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).
Lactantius
“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).
Fulgentius of Ruspe
“Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).
From the Catholic position, the "reformed" Church is the post-Tridentine Catholic Church. Those who are in continuous protest are in "rebellion," and will be until they adhere to a legitimate Apostolic authority. If the rebels don't like the epitaph they shouldn't have left the Church. We don't call the United States part of the British Empire do we? The Church of Christ is ONE, HOLY, AND APOSTOLIC. If you can't trace the authority of your leaders from the Apostles you're not really part of the Church [Henry VIII was not an Apostle, England's Apostolic authority was the Apostolic See, separation from which ipso facto removes local legitimacy]. "Christian Unity" will be between the churches founded by the Apostles and their successors... period, i.e. Rome and the various Churches of the East. Before unity between the Protestants and the Catholics can even be conceptualized they would have to humble themselves in obedience to their legitimate Bishops in communion with the Apostolic See.
Frankly I think all the complaints from Protestants about the Church's claims are missing the real point. The whole raison d'être of the Protestant churches is based on the assumption that the Apostolic See is corrupt and therefor why would they want unity with a corrupt Church I ask?
Damn Microsoft spell check!
>Wouldn’t you want some certainty that you are beling saved?,<
I have the certanty of the Holy Spirit who has sealed me.If you have never experienced the Holy Spirit in your life then you lack any ceryanty that you are saved.
>There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors.<
Why then did Peter refer to all believers as a Royal Priesthood?
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
>So, you believe the saints in Heaven are “dead”?<
They are dead to this world according th Jesus. Their is no communication between the after life and this life accept trough the Holy Spirit,
You are basing this on the invalid concept of YOPIOS which is explicitly warned against in 2 Peter 3:16.
No I relied on this passage from Luke and Jesus”s words.
>Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
So, you rely on YOPIOS?
I do not have any idea what you are talking about.Why don’t you deal with scripture rather than making up strawmen that only you understand.You obviously believe in ABCOK.
He was speaking to the Church. Those who share Jesus’ priesthood. The Eucharist is Christ, the source and summit of our faith. Priests are neccesary to conduct the Mass.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans, 6:2, 106AD
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not
confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh
which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised
up again. THEY WHO DENY THE GIFT OF GOD ARE PERISHING
IN THEIR DISPUTES.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 22(Mystagogic 4)6, 350AD
Do not, therefore, regard the Bread and the Wine as simply that; for they
are, according to the Masters declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ.
I am perplexed that you and others insist that you know more about our Catholic faith than we Catholics do. These threads serve no other purpose other than to throw mud at the Church. I suggest you pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is certainly not a book written by professional anti-Catholics with an ax to grind. So before you or others accuse the Church of ‘not beling Christian’, please pick up a copy- it only costs about $9 bucks. This will help you understand my faith instead of blindly throwing stones at the Church. In my 43 years I have never heard any anti-protestant diatribe by any priest or other religious. The Church doesn’t need to justify itself to anyone.
I say this in charity and not out of malice.
“Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D..
I find it interesting that when you are confronted by scripture you run and switch subjects.I would like you to show me where I have done this”I am perplexed that you and others insist that you know more about our Catholic faith than we Catholics do”.
Or show me where I have done this”So before you or others accuse the Church of “not beling Christian”
Or this”This will help you understand my faith instead of blindly throwing stones at the Church.”
If you can’t do this I expect an apology but it will be like every other question I have posed to you in that if you don’t have a script that answers the question you switch subjects.
I would suggest you spend a week reading the New Testament “God’s inspired word”through after asking the Holy Spirit to let you see the truth of these scriptures.
I don’t ‘run’ fom scripture, Even the devil knows it.
Go back and read the topic of this thread...
“Pope Asserts Catholic Primacy”.
I am the one who has made the point and proved it. It is you who and others who have used this thread to bash the Catholic Church and are off-topic. The Bible is a Catholic book and you are attempting to disprove the Catholic Church by throwing Scripture at me ???
Pope Benedict has said NOTHING new...
“It is the church which perfect truth perfects. The church of believers is great, and its bosom most ample; it embraces the fullness of the two Testaments.” Ephraem, Against Heresies (ante A.D. 373).
“Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth.” Ambrose, Commentary of Psalm 118,19 (A.D. 388).
” ‘So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.’ Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther.” John Chrysostom, Homily on 2nd Thessalonians, 4:2 (A.D. 404).
“My resolution is, to read the ancients, to try everything, to hold fast what is good, and not to recede from the faith of the Catholic Church.” Jerome, To Minervius & Alexander, Epistle 119 (A.D. 406).
St. Cyprian (205-258 AD)
“Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is NOT CUT NOR DIVIDED, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.”
Epistle LXVIII-8, to Florentius Pupianus
“Let the lapsed, however, who acknowledge the greatness of their sin, not depart from entreating the Lord, nor forsake the Catholic Church, which has been appointed one and alone by the Lord; but, continuing in their atonements and entreating thee”
Epistle LXIII-5, to Epictetus
St. Augustine (354-430 AD)
“By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but YOU WILL NOT come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the Catholic Church.”
Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.
“What the soul is to man’s body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member.”
Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.
St. Jerome (347-420 AD)
“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation.”
Commentaries on the Epistle to Titus, 376 A.D. 3,10 J1371a
“He slays a heretic who allows him to be a heretic. But when we rebuke him we give him life; you may die to your heresy, and live to the Catholic faith.”
Against the Pelagians, 417 A.D., book III-17
Paul admonished those who refuse to accept the authority given to the Church and warns what will happen to them if they refuse in Rom 13:1-2, “Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for THERE EXISTS NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT FROM GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD. Therefore HE WHO RESISTS THE AUTHORITY RESISTS THE ORDINANCE OF GOD; AND THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION.”
“I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon, for other foundations NO ONE CAN LAY, but that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.” 1Cor 3:10-11.
In John 10:16, Jesus said, “...and there shall be one fold and ONE SHEPHERD.”
The Church was founded by Christ on Peter for a reason. Jesus didn’t order anyone to write the Bible. What saved people before there were Bibles were printed was the Catholic Church, and She continues to save.
Changing the subject again.Where is my apology for your false accusasions.
>What saved people before there were Bibles were printed was the Catholic Church, and She continues to save.<
This contradicts the Bible.Only faith in Jesus Saves.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Contradicts?
Tell me, before there was a Bible, how were people saved if it were not for the Church? Who do you think Catholics worship? We worship Christ from the very beginning, our faith is in Him and since He was good enough to give us His Church until He returns, we have faith in Christ that He knows what He is doing and so we worship Him in His Church as He wanted, you obviously do not since you reject His Church and interpret the Bible according to your own notions.
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2:12
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 7:21
And no, it is not by faith alone....”Even so faith if it has not works, is dead, being alone.” James 2:17
“Yes, a man may say, you have faith and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2:18
“But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” James 2:20
“Do you see that faith worked along with his works, and by the works the faith was made perfect?” James 2:22
No wonder Luther called James the Epistle of straw, he wanted to burn it because it contradicted his beliefs.
“May you walk worthily of GOD and please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of GOD.” Col 1:10
“Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, whereas he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let everyone test his own work, so he will have glory in himself only, and not in comparison with another. For each one will bear his own burden.” Gal 6:2-5
“And they who have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment.” John 5:29
“If you know that he is just, know that everyone also who does what is just has been born of Him.” 1John 2:29
“Therefore, he who knows how to do good, and does not do it, commits a sin.” Jam 4:17
This is called the sin of omission. Matt 25:37-40 has more examples of sins of omission.
“And concerning these (evil works) I warn you, that they who do (evil works) such things will not attain the kingdom of GOD.” Gal 5:21 (read from verse 16 for context).
“But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore where you have fallen, and repent and do the former works; or else I will come to you, and will move your lamp-stand out of its place, unless you repent.” Rev 2:4-5
“I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, but which were ready to die. For I do not find your works complete before my GOD.” Rev 3:1-2
“Alexander, the coppersmith, has done me much harm; the Lord will render him according to his deeds.” 2Tim 4:14
“My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth.”
1Jn 3:18
“I know your works, your faith, your love, your ministry, your patience, and your last works, which are more numerous than the former.” Rev 2:19
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, FOR THEIR WORKS FOLLOW THEM’.” Rev 14:13
It is the Catholic Church who interprets Scripture correctly.
“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures....Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them and the table of your heart.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 350).
“[T]hey who are placed without the Church, cannot attain to any understanding of the divine word. For the ship exhibits a type of Church, the word of life placed and preached within which, they who are without, and lie near like barren and useless sands, cannot understand.” Hilary of Poitiers, On Matthew, Homily 13:1 (A.D. 355).
“But beyond these [Scriptural] sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers kept.” Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:28 (A.D. 360).
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