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To: HarleyD; P-Marlowe
This would be a true statement if the Sryian manuscript was the ONLY reference. Iraeneus wrote his piece in Heresy around 174AD. Yet Clements wrote around the exact same time: (On the Timing of John's Banishment) "And to give you confidence, when you have thus truly repented, that there remains for you a trustworthy hope of salvation, hear a story that is no mere story, but a true account of John the apostle that has been handed down and preserved in memory. When after the death of the tyrant [previously identified as Nero] he removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus, he used to journey by request to the neighboring districts of the Gentiles, in some places to appoint bishops, in others to regulate whole churches, in others to set among the clergy some one man, it may be, of those indicated by the Spirit." (Who is the Rich Man that shall be Saved?; Section 42)- 150-215AD

That's funny because E B Elliot cites the very same Clement and this same story, as well as Eusebius's comments on it, as evidence of the late date of Revelation:

"Clement's support to a later date is found in story involving St. John after he returned from Patmos. The point being made that John was quite an old man when it occurred.

"Next Clement of Alexandria indirectly, but I think clearly, confirms the statement. In relating the well-known story of St. John and the robber, he speaks of it as acted out by the apostle on his return from exile in Patmos, 'after the death of the tyrant;' and represents him as at that time an infirm old man. Now 'the tyrant,' whose death is referred to, must necessarily be either Nero or Domitian; as these were, up to the end of the first century, the only imperial persecutors of the Christian body. And Nero it can scarcely be: since, at the time of Nero's persecution, St. John was by no means an infirm old man; being probably not much above, if indeed so much as, sixty years of age.

Thus it must rather have been the tyrant Domitian. So, in fact, Eusebius expressly explains Clement to mean. " (vol. I, p. 33-34)[Historicist.com]

355 posted on 05/25/2007 10:42:01 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
And this also from Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History Book III:

Chapter 17. The Persecution under Domitian.

"Domitian, having shown great cruelty toward many, and having unjustly put to death no small number of well-born and notable men at Rome, and having without cause exiled and confiscated the property of a great many other illustrious men, finally became a successor of Nero in his hatred and enmity toward God. He was in fact the second that stirred up a persecution against us, although his father Vespasian had undertaken nothing prejudicial to us."

Chapter 18. The Apostle John and the Apocalypse.

"1. It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word.

2. Irenæus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: 3. "If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.

4. To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it. 5. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome, was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ.

360 posted on 05/25/2007 11:28:40 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; P-Marlowe
"Next Clement of Alexandria indirectly, but I think clearly, confirms the statement. In relating the well-known story of St. John and the robber, he speaks of it as acted out by the apostle on his return from exile in Patmos, 'after the death of the tyrant;' and represents him as at that time an infirm old man.

Here is the story from Clement about the Apostle John with highlights by myself:

Assuming John was 13 (young but not unreasonably so) at the time when Christ began His ministry (30AD), then by 95AD, John would have been 82 years old. If he would have been release from Patmos in 68AD, John would have been 55 years old.

Clements talks about John (after being released from Patmos), blessing a boy, who becomes involved in all sorts of nefarious activities over time. After some amount of time goes by, and John has wandered all around the country sides establishing churches and bishops, they call John back, who then hops a horse and rides across the countryside. Now given the account above, and realizing that there seems to be a substantial amount of time that has past, does the Apostle John’s actions sound like he’s 82 or 55 (realizing that he would be closer to 90)? Does it sound pausible that a 90 year old man (in those days) would hop a horse and ride hard to find a lost soul?

Given this story do you think Clements “represents him [sic: John] as at that time an infirm old man.” as Elliot claims. I don’t think so. Elliot obviously made up this statement to support his own contention. Too bad people didn’t have the Internet back then to check it out.

363 posted on 05/25/2007 12:50:09 PM PDT by HarleyD
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