Posted on 05/21/2007 1:31:42 AM PDT by bruinbirdman
Everyone I know seems to be reading the Bible these days in search of answers. That is usually a good thing but not always. In fact, too many of the Biblical discussions I get into with friends and family members relate to the “End Times” and whether they are upon us. That is a shame because reading the Bible can enrich one’s daily life provided one is not obsessed with using it as a device to decipher the future.
Because of one relatively simple error in dating one book of the New Testament, author Tim LaHaye has misled tens of millions of people into thinking that a great time of tribulation is near. He has Christians everywhere looking for signs of an emerging anti-Christ and, ultimately, in a cowardly fashion, looking forward to a time when Christ will rapture his church away from earthly troubles.
If Christians would simply study the New Testament themselves – instead of relying upon 21st Century “prophets” writing fictional books for 21st Century profits – they would arrive at a few very simple conclusions:
1. The Revelation to John was written around 65 AD, not 95 AD.
2. The anti-Christ was Nero, not some world figure yet to emerge in the 21st Century.
3. The tribulation occurred in the First Century around the time of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.
4. The “rapture” never happened and it never will.
5. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 plainly reveal that most of the discourse in The Revelation to John is based on events in the First Century.
Once an individual realizes he is stuck here on earth and will not be raptured away from all of his troubles, he can begin to read the Bible the way it was intended to be read. I have a word of advice for those who have never really thought about reading the Bible as an end in itself rather than as a means to some goal such as predicting the future. My advice is actually borrowed from a friend who received a moving card from his wife just a few months ago.
After receiving the cherished card from his wife, my friend would sneak into their bedroom late at night (she always fell asleep while he was finishing his last TV show). After giving her a kiss while she was sleeping, he would take the card off his dresser and go into the spare room to read it by the light of a small lamp.
There were certain lines he would read three and four times over: “It is a privilege to know you, to share myself with you,” “I never knew such a person could exist until I met you,” and “You lift my spirits to places where my troubles seem so much farther away.”
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It was wonderful to hear that a dear friend had found his “soul mate” and all of the joy that comes from lifelong companionship. But, at the same time, I could not listen to his story without thinking of all the other friends I know who have suffered through a painful divorce or, in some cases, never even met someone with whom they share a special bond of love. And some are growing older and lonelier by the day.
But, recently, I received a new insight into what seems to be an unfair distribution of soul mates among God’s children. It came as I was listening to a pastor named “Mike” whose last name I do not even know. His message was broadcast from Port City Church in Wilmington to a theater rented out to handle the overflow of his growing congregation.
He urged each member of his church to read the First Letter of John during the coming week. He also urged them to read it as if it were written just for them by someone who is madly in love with them.
I was so intrigued by this take on the proper approach to reading the New Testament epistle that I immediately bought a copy of the English Standard Version – a version I’ve been meaning to read for quite some time. Later that night I opened it and started reading by the light of a small lamp:
“…Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling… I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake … Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure… We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him…”
After reading those lines, it occurred to me that I had only been skimming through this great epistle on my last several runs through the New Testament. My zeal to get to The Revelation to John has been such that I have hardly noticed those great words in the years following the attacks of 911.
We all need to learn to read the Word as if it were written for us personally by someone who could not love us more. When we cannot get enough of it in the here and now, the future seems so much less important. And a little uncertainty is hardly the end of the world.
It says 1) Christ was promised the throne of David, 2) Christ is physically reigning, and 3) Christ sat down on a throne given to Him. Now if He is currently sitting down on a throne that God has given Him, what throne is this?
ROTFLOL!!!
Christ is everywhere and over all things, so He could well be sitting on Seinfeld's parent's uncomfortable pull-out sofa as we speak in addition to most definitely sitting on the throne of David from where He rules with might and purpose.
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." -- Ephesians 1:7-12"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Sounds to me like His gathering "together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" is current and ongoing, as God wills.
"Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;"
This is how Nero died...
According to Suetonius, Nero fled to Via Salaria, a suburb of Rome with his remaining friends. They urged him to flee, but he prepared himself for suicide. Reportedly, the praetorian guard entered to capture Nero just as he stabbed himself with the help of his secretary, Epaphroditus. Upon seeing the figure of a Roman soldier, he gasped "this is fidelity."It was said by Cassius Dio that he uttered the last words "Jupiter, what an artist perishes in me!"
Do you see any connection there? I certainly do not. Jesus kills, brings the Antichrist to an end, at the brightness of his coming (Parousia).
Nero comitted suicide.
"Satan is currently being subdued under Christ. Amazing that people would actually prefer to believe otherwise. What greater assistance does Satan need if Christians believe he is in control?"
What does this have to do with the issue at hand???
Is Satan defeated? Yes.
Is he powerless and can be safely ignored? only at your extreme peril.
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"
Nero, Caligula, Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, every evil despot of every evil empire, including Hillary Clinton, is and was under the control of God who puts these reprobates into the paths of His flock for His own perfect purpose, not the least of which is so that we may know conclusively that with Christ we will triumph.
I agree totally. But the Bible states that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist at his Parousia.
Jesus Parousia has not yet occured.
Nero is long dead.
Therefore Nero is not the Antichrist refered to in II Thes.
"Sadly, the dispensationalist doesn't seem to really believe Him."
Why do you say this?
You need to get out more and hang around those who actually believe the scriptures ---
Thankfully, dispensationalism is a minority opinion in Christianity and, God willing, it, too, shall pass.
Not until heaven and earth passes away [the dispensational one not the preterist].
HarleyD, I believe you are failing to distinguish between the Heavenly (but real) throne and the earthly throne.
Please consider the following...
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” - Matthew 19
Please note the following:
1. The time referred to is after the 2nd coming, after the general resurrection
2. Future tense “shall sit in the throne of his glory”. The clear implication is that there is some future throne waiting Jesus.
Jesus already reigns with all power is heaven - but at some point in the future, after the 2nd coming he will sit down on an earthly throne in Jerusalem and, with the 12 disciples, rule over the 12 tribes of Israel.
Act 2:30-33 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit upon his [sic:David's] throne, seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption, God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured out this which you now see and hear.
Where does it say that Jesus is currently sitting on the Throne of David??? He is currently sitting on the right hand of his Father not on David's Throne, right, until His Father makes His enemies His footstool???
I'm with Dr. E; I have never heard any Christian say that Christ was not reigning. And, according to the above verses, Christ has been given a throne already.
If that's so, then why is He still sitting on the right side of His Father's throne, not His throne or David's Throne???
If you believe in a physical resurrection, then Christ must be physically reigning.
I'm sorry, did I miss the resurrection. We must all have missed it. Or is it still future for us all who believe. And then after a physical resurrection then a physical reign from the city of David aka Jerusalem.
If He is physically reigning, He has been given a throne.
Well, that settles it: He is not physically reigning because He is not here on earth yet, right? He is still in heaven, and He is still not sitting on the Throne of David
If He's been given a throne, He's reigning from the throne of David.
Then it mustn't have been given to Him yet, right, because He is still sitting next to His Father.
HD,
It says Christ was promised the throne. It says Christ
was raised from the dead. From there, everything else you
said is not in the text.
best,
ampu
It all makes sense to me now! Thank you for showing where
you stand in all this.
Dr. Gary North, Reconstructionist, who wants to literally,
publically STONE blasphemers, heretics, apostate Christians, people who cursed or struck their parents, females guilty of “unchastity before marriage,” “incorrigible” juvenile delinquents, adulterers, murderers and those guilty of raping married women or betrothed virgins.
Are there that many stones available in America?
This, is the balanced view of scripture you are putting
forth to show how unbalanced Dispensationalists are??? And
Dr. Gary North is your theologian, who represents your views
of scripture? Give me someone who loves God, understands
grace and has trusted Christ - yet takes God’s word as true -
any day over that.
Would your group dedicate a television
station to provide live coverage of these public stonings
like the kind that occurred in Afghanistan in the soccer
stadium back before the liberation?
My gosh! That makes Pat Robertson look mainstream!
No need to respond. I get it now. Just tell me you’ve
trusted Christ for your salvation and with that I’ll gladly
wish you blessings in your life - which apparently and sadly
will be lived under slavery to the Law.
Yikes.
ampu
when only FACTS are listed, preterism loses hands down.
preterism is built on an extremely shaky foundation of conjecture and opinion.
“RAPTURE FEVER
WHY DISPENSATIONALISM IS PARALYZED
by Gary North”
All kidding aside, watch out for Gary North. He’s come out with some fairly crazy stuff in the past. He was a BIG hyper of Y2K. I believe he was involved in several misinformed ventures before that.
North warned about computer troubles before 2000. Other than that, there have been no "misinformed ventures."
One of the greatest books ever written was North's...
Free, online. Every conservative Christian should read that book.
Other than that, there have been no “misinformed ventures.”
Trying to make America a Theocracy and imposing the OT Law on believers is a misinformed venture.
“So, of course I want to see y2k bring down the system, all over the world.
I have hoped for this all of my adult life.” — Gary North
I think that is a fair point and an interesting observation. Are there two thrones; one in heaven and one on earth? I would tend to say no and I would point to this verse (among others).
and again...
Mat 23:22 And he who shall swear by Heaven swears by the throne of God, and by Him who sits on it.
This touches on something that I, quite frankly, have never figured out-the physical and the spiritual. Satan is a physical being roaming around like a lion, but we don't see him. Likewise we know angels are everywhere. Indeed, we are told in scripture that we might treat them "unaware". Yet we would call them spiritual beings. There is no indication that the garden of Eden was ever destroyed, and every indication that it still exist guarded by angels, but where is it? We even know the general whereabouts but can any of us find it?
I bring this up because I don't think one can clearly distinguish from the "spiritual" and "physical". They appear to be intertwine like different spectrum of light. A slight shift in the wave pattern and one has a completely different perspective.
Just because we cannot see a physical throne going from heaven to earth does not mean that a physical throne doesn't exist. Christ was physical but upon His resurrection would appear and disappear. (I might add He did this before His death as well.) How we will be in our glorified bodies is difficult to understand. Somehow we view ourselves as we are now, walking around on some celestrial cloud. I'm not sure if that's the right perspective.
A physical throne reaching from heaven to earth right now doesn't seem to be all that preposterous when we can't even find Eden located on the Tigris and Euphrates.
1) Christ was promised the throne of David,- Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.
2) Christ is physically reigning,- Act 1:9 And saying these things, as they watched, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight.
3) Christ sat down on a throne given to Him. - Heb 1:3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,
Thank you for the scripture --- it one more time refutes the preterist position. Read it carefully. It says that heaven is God's [the Father's] throne and Jerusalem is the city of the great King.
Bingo ----
"At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord, and all nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem, neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."[Jeremiah 3:18]
??? Did I miss something???
I assume you are equating the Jews with Jerusalem and somehow are trying to suggest that God loves the rebellious Jews? That is not what the text states.
Yes --- the entire text above --- it's right there. It says that "Jerusalem is the city of the great King". Who is the great King? and what is His city? and where will His throne be?
I assume you are equating the Jews with Jerusalem and somehow are trying to suggest that God loves the rebellious Jews?
Are you suggesting that He doesn't???Are you saying that God is incapable of "having mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy"??? Are rebellious Jews or anybody beyond the grace of God??? Since when???
You guys are too much with your double standards and are in for a rude awakening.
“2) Christ is physically reigning,- Act 1:9 And saying these things, as they watched, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight.
3) Christ sat down on a throne given to Him. - Heb 1:3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,
HD,
I grant you that the scriptures say Christ was promised
to reign on the throne of David (your #1)
As to #’s 2 & 3...
#2 - Your verse says Christ was caught up in the clouds. It
doesn’t say He is physically reigning.
#3 - It says He sat down. It doesn’t say He is reigning on
the throne of David.
You have made two large assumptions.
ampu
This is not a case of cosmic halitosis.
The Bible tells us what it means.
“He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.” (Rev. 1:16)
“Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.” (Rev. 2:16)
“Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” (Rev. 19:15)
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Heb. 4:12)
Christ conquers by means of the Word of God. That is the testimony of Scripture. The “lawless one” is defeated by the same means, the testimony of the Word of God.
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