Posted on 05/21/2007 1:31:42 AM PDT by bruinbirdman
Everyone I know seems to be reading the Bible these days in search of answers. That is usually a good thing but not always. In fact, too many of the Biblical discussions I get into with friends and family members relate to the End Times and whether they are upon us. That is a shame because reading the Bible can enrich ones daily life provided one is not obsessed with using it as a device to decipher the future.
Because of one relatively simple error in dating one book of the New Testament, author Tim LaHaye has misled tens of millions of people into thinking that a great time of tribulation is near. He has Christians everywhere looking for signs of an emerging anti-Christ and, ultimately, in a cowardly fashion, looking forward to a time when Christ will rapture his church away from earthly troubles.
If Christians would simply study the New Testament themselves instead of relying upon 21st Century prophets writing fictional books for 21st Century profits they would arrive at a few very simple conclusions:
1. The Revelation to John was written around 65 AD, not 95 AD.
2. The anti-Christ was Nero, not some world figure yet to emerge in the 21st Century.
3. The tribulation occurred in the First Century around the time of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.
4. The rapture never happened and it never will.
5. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 plainly reveal that most of the discourse in The Revelation to John is based on events in the First Century.
Once an individual realizes he is stuck here on earth and will not be raptured away from all of his troubles, he can begin to read the Bible the way it was intended to be read. I have a word of advice for those who have never really thought about reading the Bible as an end in itself rather than as a means to some goal such as predicting the future. My advice is actually borrowed from a friend who received a moving card from his wife just a few months ago.
After receiving the cherished card from his wife, my friend would sneak into their bedroom late at night (she always fell asleep while he was finishing his last TV show). After giving her a kiss while she was sleeping, he would take the card off his dresser and go into the spare room to read it by the light of a small lamp.
There were certain lines he would read three and four times over: It is a privilege to know you, to share myself with you, I never knew such a person could exist until I met you, and You lift my spirits to places where my troubles seem so much farther away.
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It was wonderful to hear that a dear friend had found his soul mate and all of the joy that comes from lifelong companionship. But, at the same time, I could not listen to his story without thinking of all the other friends I know who have suffered through a painful divorce or, in some cases, never even met someone with whom they share a special bond of love. And some are growing older and lonelier by the day.
But, recently, I received a new insight into what seems to be an unfair distribution of soul mates among Gods children. It came as I was listening to a pastor named Mike whose last name I do not even know. His message was broadcast from Port City Church in Wilmington to a theater rented out to handle the overflow of his growing congregation.
He urged each member of his church to read the First Letter of John during the coming week. He also urged them to read it as if it were written just for them by someone who is madly in love with them.
I was so intrigued by this take on the proper approach to reading the New Testament epistle that I immediately bought a copy of the English Standard Version a version Ive been meaning to read for quite some time. Later that night I opened it and started reading by the light of a small lamp:
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his names sake Beloved, we are Gods children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him
After reading those lines, it occurred to me that I had only been skimming through this great epistle on my last several runs through the New Testament. My zeal to get to The Revelation to John has been such that I have hardly noticed those great words in the years following the attacks of 911.
We all need to learn to read the Word as if it were written for us personally by someone who could not love us more. When we cannot get enough of it in the here and now, the future seems so much less important. And a little uncertainty is hardly the end of the world.
Come on over here -——
LOL. Dispensationalism is the "new kid on the block," a mangling of Scripture and history in order to further geopolitical goals.
Partial or historic preterism is the same belief that has been taught and preached and understood for 2,000 years -- Christ rules from Heaven today and the only path to salvation is by His name.
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. " -- Col. 1:16020 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
When Jesus is asking Peter if he loves Him, in the KJV all you see the the word “love.” In the Greek, the words for love in the Greek are philos and Agape. I don’t remember the sermon off hand, but when you read the story in the Greek, there is so much more in that then meets the eye in the KJV.
I’m not saying that the KJV is corrupt, just that in the English, it doesn’t always care over the whole meaning. Now I use the KJV and love it, but my church has in it’s pews the NIV, which I don’t love. However, when you are being guided in Church by the pastor, it still works to convey God’s message.
Another version I don’t like is the Living Bible. However, my rebel sister was lead back to the Lord through the use of the Living Bible, because KJV didn’t make sense to her.
I definately believe that there are bad, good, and better versions to use for study, but like I said before, the Holy Spirit as your guide is most important.
Sincerely
{{{Ping}}}
(in case you missed it)
**************
At His coming and confirmed by His resurrection.
Whoa, whoa, whao... Dr. E!
Hold up there!!!
What do you mean At His coming...????
How could Jesus have destroyed Nero, at his coming (parousia) if he hasnt come yet????
???
That is absolutely not true. In Disp. theology Christ is reigning - right at this very minute - in heaven. With all the power of heaven and earth, may I add
“One of the great delights I experienced in moving from the frantic freak show / horror show of pop eschatology into the sober, significant, and deeply joyous Reformed perspective was — a new appreciation for corporate realities.”
In your move, you also seem to have picked up another unfortunate Reformed trait - a scornful sense of superiority.
“Hey, I don’t mind having a “personal” Savior. Explain to me, though, how such an artificially restricted role differs from that of guru.”
Tom, you were clearly called out and now your backpedaling. You said they Disp. Th. reduces the Lord, “to a mere guru.” I asked you for a clarification. You offered none. Can I take this as a sign that you are retracting your statement?
The use of the term “personal Savior” is meant both to educate and invite people who have only know the distant, impersonal “god” of religious formalism to a relationship with a living and active Lord. One Who may be known on a personal basis. Is that not EXACTLY what Jesus taught when he instructed the disciples to call on Abba Father???
For heaven's sake, Tom, the "personal relationship" is the central dynamic of the new covenant! "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
If you are not retracting your mischaracterization, then I again ask you to point to exactly how we “reduce [the Lord], in this present age, to a mere guru. Please be specific.
“It’s a lot more fun to sit down at the King’s table, get debriefed on how things are faring in my corner of the Kingdom”
I’m glad for you, and hope that in an upcoming debriefing you may be instructed about the seriousness of mischaracterizing and depreciating the teaching of your fellow believers and coheirs.
Actually there isn't.
Agape and Philo are used interchangebly in the Greek.
See the article on 'Greek nuggets' http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_47.asp
Im not saying that the KJV is corrupt, just that in the English, it doesnt always care over the whole meaning. Now I use the KJV and love it, but my church has in its pews the NIV, which I dont love. However, when you are being guided in Church by the pastor, it still works to convey Gods message.
Well, I am saying that all other versions but the King James are corrupt since they have errors in them.
It doesn't 'work' if the bible being used has errors in it and thus, undermines the confidence people ought to have in their Bible (Pr.22:21)
Another version I dont like is the Living Bible. However, my rebel sister was lead back to the Lord through the use of the Living Bible, because KJV didnt make sense to her.
God can use alot of things, He used a donkey once to rebuke a prophet (Num.22).
The question any believer has to answer is what Bible is God's truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth and that is only the KJB.
That is why people don't 'like it'.
As Mark Twain once said, 'it isn't the things in the Bible that I don't understand that bother me, it is the things I do understand'
I definately believe that there are bad, good, and better versions to use for study, but like I said before, the Holy Spirit as your guide is most important.
The Holy Spirit can only guide you if you are willing to do what He says and not put your own opinions and preferences first (Rom.12:1-2)
Sincerely
Likewise
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. " -- Col. 1:16020
Sorry, Doc, but I see nothing in these verses about Jesus currently reigning from the Throne of David over the earth, as Preterism alleges to be currently going on. Over the hearts of those who trust in His Word --- Yes --- but not physically yet. Over the hearts of those who don't trust in His Word and don't want Him to reign over them from Jerusalem as that Word says --- Not at all.
Do you have anything else that we can take a look at, or is this the best that Preterists can come up with???
How about that oft-quoted Preterist verse I Corinthians 15:20-28????
Oh --- wait a minute --- that can't be used by the Preterists because that reign will be physical and is still future. It won't be established until after "his coming" [per verses 15:23-24].
Well keep looking.
It's a lot more fun to sit down at the King's table, get debriefed on how things are faring in my corner of the Kingdom..." (Post 331 I think)
For me and my family...I'll take THE Personal Savior!
Oh, how wrong are those who are deceived by replacement theology of the liberal and deceived Christians.
Those who read and search the scriptures know that their will indeed be a translation (latin; rapture), a seven year tribulation headed up by the son of perdition ( whom the world will love and follow and believe because of the miracles God will give him power to do so that God’s judgement on the unsaved will be clearly deserved for their refusal of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ; then the 1000 year rule of Jesus the Christ on the earth, the Son then delivers the Kingdom up to the Father, the devil Satan released from the bottomless pit where God chained him for the 1000 year rule, the deception of the unbelieving human race the 2nd time and their subsequent attack on the saints at Zion, fire coming down from God out of heaven, the ressurection of the unsaved and judgement because of their refusal to beleive Jesus Christ is Lord, the casting of souls into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet and Satan and the angels are, the new heavens and earth and the new Jerusalem made without hands descending down from God out of heaven where the Father and the Son will be with the saved Christians forever.
It is written in the scriptures for those who beleive and all the liars will be in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
I already answered the question, PM. You just don't like the answer. It's always going to be the same answer.
Christ reigns today from heaven. He has conquered death and the sins of tomorrow as well as yesterday's by His incarnation which was the turning point in history.
From the moment of His resurrection, Christ has been gathering the elect from all races and nations and bringing them home while subduing Satan and his minions which certainly included Nero.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." -- Matthew 28:18-20"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Is Jesus just hiding all this power in heaven and on earth which has been given to him? No, His incarnation signaled the sea-change of all history.
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." -- Hebrews 10:12-13"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Satan is currently being subdued under Christ. Amazing that people would actually prefer to believe otherwise. What greater assistance does Satan need if Christians believe he is in control?
"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him." -- Luke 10:22
"All things."
But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth." -- Luke 11:21-23"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
Who is the "strong man" in these verses, and who is the "stronger" man?
Nero, Caligula, Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, every evil despot of every evil empire, including Hillary Clinton, is and was under the control of God who puts these reprobates into the paths of His flock for His own perfect purpose, not the least of which is so that we may know conclusively that with Christ we will triumph.
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33
Sadly, the dispensationalist doesn't seem to really believe Him.
"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." -- Luke 10:16
Dispensationalism has concocted an enormous tapestry of deflection for geopolitical gains.
Frankly, I've never spoken to another Christian in real life (other than this internet forum) who actually believes Christ does not reign today from heaven. At first glace, it's really a preposterous proposition. And it never gets any saner. Thankfully, dispensationalism is a minority opinion in Christianity and, God willing, it, too, shall pass.
ping
TS,
you have written more than once, “# I grieve for the dispensationalists, who are trying to struggle through life with a Lord who their theology has reduced, in this present age, to a mere guru.”
Having become a dispensationalist after seminary through study, and having interacted with a large number of others, I have never, ever, ever, ever found this to be true. The dispensationalists I know, including me, have a HUGE Christ! Coming in victory. Don’t know what you’ve been smoking or reading, but it is some kind of alternative reality.
best,
ampu
dop,
“commodity traders”
Funny we each went to seminary. I am a hedge fund
manager and mutual fund manager. You are a commodity
trader.
:-)
E,
I’d really, really like to hear more about your comment, “Dispensationalism has concocted an enormous tapestry of deflection for geopolitical gains”
Would you specify the geopolitical gains dispensationalism sought to achieve, or really desires to achieve?
thanks in advance,
going to get some popcorn for the tale of intrigue...
ampu
It is no coincidence dispensationalism was spawned to highlight an area of the world with enough natural resources to determine the next century.
To miss this geopolitical connection is to miss why this fanciful perspective on the Bible was created out of thin air and which denies the basic truth of Scripture -- that Jesus Christ rules today and is gathering His flock from all nations and races.
This has been discussed endlessly on FR. If you've missed it, why not read the following book online for free...
I'm not sure what Dr. E has provided but Christ was given the throne of David.
Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
I doubt if He's hold up in some Orlando timeshare.
Dr. E,
I missed the geopolitical gains part of your explanation. That is really what I was after. What geopolitical gains have other dispensationalists realized that I missed out on? If we’re all in it for the geopolitical gains, I’ve clearly missed out. And unless this is really hush, hush, my friends have too.
Could you be more specific about these gains?
Your first explanation was long on conjecture and short on fact.
As an aside, after you address the geopolitical gains that are my due, but which are sadly lacking...
...would you also explain why dispensationalists teach dispensational theology to their converts in third world countries, if the whole thing was founded on being just in the west? Is the movement falling off it’s wheels and not realizing it is only for the west? Or has the entire movement been duped into forgetting it’s geopolitical gains, now that it is established???
Gary North - I wouldn’t waste the small amount of time I have
left on earth reading works by Gary North. I’ve had enough
North already to convince me of that.
best,
ampu
HD,
the passages you quote do not say Christ has received the throne of David.
best,
ampu
Then I doubt you'll care what I think.
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