Posted on 05/21/2007 1:31:42 AM PDT by bruinbirdman
Ooops, I accidently removed the digits from the last part of Daniel I pasted..
THe last sentences should read
12:11 From the time that the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination that causes desolation is set in place, there are 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits and attains to the 1,335 days.
Do you deny that you teach such a doctrine? Again, there is a distinction in theology between a clear and open catching up of God's people (the dead in Christ rising first) to meet Christ in the air and return with him to judge the earth so that "Every eye shall see him" and the "secret" coming which is seen only by the church, when he surreptitiously whisks away the church, leaving behind only the befuddled heathen watching the "left behind" series, and frantically searching through Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahaye's works for a clue as to what happened. The HISTORICAL church has always taught the first. The latecomers to the game have taken the phrase and twisted it to mean something the scriptures simply do not teach. If you DENY teaching a "secret" coming of Christ that only his church sees, then I will retract the use of the word "secret." As it is, I can see you are a dispensationlist, so I am assuming you teach it. So, again, I ask, where is the biblical evidence for it?
Here’s support for the physical state of Israel in the end times...
Actually, no it isn't Let's look at it.
“They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Actually, this says nothing about a geopolitical state of Israel. It MIGHT (I believe it does) point to a return of Jews to Jerusalem, but that is a far far far cry from the restoration of a theonomic state in covenant with God.
As to the "signs in sun moon and stars" stuff, I fail to see how this references a geopolitical state of Israel at all. I don't have my charts in front of me, though.
As to your final reference, it is just a repeat of the first time you said it. Again, this is NO compelling evidence at all of a restoration of the Jewish nation state, and may well fit within the HISTORICAL view of the section that does not refer to such a nation state at all. These verses you cite fit equally well within the historical orthodox view of the end times, and cannot be cited as "proof" of anything. To qualify as evidence, they have to clearly teach "this is true and this is not true." These verses REQUIRE you to adopt your view of the end times and then you can pull them out and say "see, it says it right here!" Kind of like saying that I Thess 4 teaches a secret rapture, when it "teaches" no such thing. It is just a verse among many dispensationalists have hijacked and crammed into a system that NO ONE would ever come up with from Scripture itself. Again, that is why no one ever did until Darby came along, and he had help from Margaret McDonald.
I like your sense of humor!
If the saints were all in Heaven, then how could he make war on them and conquer them?
Rev13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed witht he sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints
Since John is CLEARLY addressing the saints, then why is he telling them to not resist the beast when they are led away in captivity or put to the sword if they had already been taken up into Heaven? Why bother with the Revelation at all if not to prepare the saints for the tribulation? /p>What does this have to do with the Rapture (rhetorical question)? When the rapture is mentioned in Thessalonians, it does not GIVE THE SEQUENCE of events as Revelations does. It is perfectly consistent that the rapture will occur AFTER some part of the tribulation has passed. Which part? Since John's account is hardly sequential, I don't think we can know that. It seems at the very least the saints will endure the coming of the beast and persecution at his hands. What about the bowls and trumpets, and God's final wrath? I don't know; it doesn't seem likely, but Revelations doesn't SAY that Christians had been taken up into Heaven at some concrete time point. John does have the vision of those in white robes in heaven, and is told that, "These are those who have come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." and "...never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst..." So at some point after the start of the great tribulation, the Lord brings them to Heaven, but again we don't know when. One might argue, and I wouldn't disagree that those who yet live throught whatever extent of tribulations that the church will endure will be taken up at that moment when Jesus finally reveals himself in triumph.
As John tells us, "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." May God bless you all.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
What will happen to those that are completely unprepared for the man of sin when he gets here. He'll look and act like Christ and will deceive many. Jesus foretold us all things. Never did He tells us we would be taken away before the tribulation. Rather, He told us what to do during it.
DoP,
Actually, you would be wrong in your guess.
You can read all you want to at their website, as
I did. http://www.rts.edu/
Best,
ampu
PS - don’t be so quick to judge a fellow freeper!
apparently it was known before the 1830s - Paul
wrote about it in I Thess 4! And I definitely believe
the Apostle Paul lived before the 1800s...
The preterist's position is belied by the empirical evidence. The futurist position is confirmed by the internal evidence of scripture itself.
Carry on.
bookmark
Absolutely outstanding post, Ray.
Thanks.
Granted, but remember two things. Biblical scholars are tyring to correct or argue against/for other interpretations rather than scripture itself. There are quite a lot of interpretations of scripture that have become so ingrained into Christian culture that they have attained the status of scripture itself. And that IS man made.
Secondly, remember that the bible in your hand is not the actual scripture. Its a translation. A very good translation, made by Godly men who did their very best, but it is a translation and ideas and concepts are distorted in that translation. Inevitably.
LOL...wouldnt work if you were Japanese though :)
Bust out your strong’s and find me the trinity. You won’t find that, either. Does it mean it doesn’t exist?
I never mentioned dispensationalism. You brought it up.
From what I can see on this thread (and I might be wrong), there’s a strange idea floating around that nothing outside Catholic teaching is to be considered part of the ‘historical church.’ Let me know if I’m wrong.
Also, I have never pulled out any timecharts, and don’t intend to.
Neither did I mention anything about “secret raptures” of Ms. Margaret What’s-her-name. Trying to paint me into her corner is sloppy or just plain dishonest.
Sorry, but you’re making a ton of assumptions about what I believe, or deliberately trying to distort it. And you’re not going to paint me as a Darbyist, because I’ve never listened to his teaching.
What I would really like to know is the religious background and beliefs of the guy who wrote this article (the guy who listened to Mike). I have a lot of problems with his article.
Also, I’d like to see the data supporting your view that American Christians are probably the most ignorant group. Deep Christian study, serious study, has a very strong history in America. It still does. It may not be your brand of Christianity, however. (What is your brand, by the way? I am a generic believer in Jesus Christ and his Gospel. I am a non-Catholic, but that is about all I will specify.)
We need to be very careful about letting sectarian schisms take over our study and discussion of God’s word. It is very easy and reasonable to read about “the living” being caught up and come up with some sort of explanation of what that means. Darby and McDonald aside, I would be very surprised if similar ideas have not been around for much, much longer than their particular brand of eschatology.
The best teachers I have listened to on the book of Revelation almost ALWAYS predicate their teaching by admitting they might be wrong, and encouraging the student to think for themselves, prayfully and with careful study, and to not allow a study of end times to distract them from our business at hand — preaching the Gospel to every creature, and baptizing them and bringing them up in the faith.
In Christ, Wiley
It's a big clue!
There is no reading the New Testament prophecies without also including the Old Testament to go along with them.
Well Said --- but try these dates instead:
458 BC --- the command to rebuild Jerusalem given to and by Ezra.
483 years later is 26 AD --- when Jesus is baptized by John and enters the synagogue to announce the acceptable year of the Lord.
3 and a half years later --- Nisan 14, 30 AD is the Crucifixion and the Messiah is "cut off".
Thus there are actually only 3 and a half years remaining of that 70th week of Daniel. The last days of the week are the final 3 and a half.
My Friend,
I’m happy you studied under R C Sproul. I was given a free ticket to a week at the Ligonier Study Center in the winter of 1980. I lived in NJ at the time and we had a storm so I couldn’t make it. To ease my guilt about wasting this, I bought a few of his (RC) books. This was at a time when I couldn’t care less about pre-mil or any mil for that matter.
I’m sure that RCS in a great guy in person. I’m not doubting his faith. However, one of his book in particular, Knowing Scripture, I read this several times over the years. A few short months ago, I re-read it and have come to the opinion that is is worthless. There is nothing of value in those pages. Zero.
It is a huge mistake to get wrapped up in the falable teaching of man. I don’t care what or who say’s so, if it isn’t taught in the Bible it isn’t counting towards heaven. My opinion of RCS is that he holds a weak view of Scripture. That is my opinion and since we have freedom of religion in the US and individual soul liberty in in eyes of God we are free to choose to belive what we want to believe. The truth, no matter who utters it is the truth and a lie, no matter who utters it is a lie.
I have no malace towards you or RCS. If you say you went from dispensations to Amil due to the teaching of someone like RCS, more power to you. I did the opposite, went from Amil to disp., do you care?
Preterists try to make a distinction between physical and spiritual Israel, as if it is one or the other, but the Israel of God is both. Those who are just physical descendants with out concomitant faith in the Word of their God will find themselves outside of the Kingdom of God.
Paul tells us in Galatians that the Abrahamic Covenant was the foundation of the Gospel --- and the promise of the Land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham is an integral part of that foundation.
It is the clear and unmistakable message of Acts 1 and Acts 15 and the prophets that Jesus will return to restore the Kingdom to Israel, as promised, and to reign over that Kingdom from Jerusalem, as promised.
Amen and well said! We all tend to have our opinion of certain aspects of the Bible. But when someone tells me that I'm not reading it Correctly, or that I should study some other teacher for his opinion, or better yet that I'm weak minded and simply ignorant because of my beliefs, that's when I reckon it's time for me to go straight to the Bible. The scriptures are being manipulated by some to say what they want them to say. I choose to listen to the Holy Spirit and what He has to say.
In Christ, Wiley
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