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To: DreamsofPolycarp; fatboy
NO promises were EVER made to those who were physical descendants only of Abraham. It is improper to say God "changed his mind" about the promises made to anyone, and no promises were made to those who were only of the physical lineage of Abraham. Again, this is the clear and unmistakeable message of Romans 4.

Preterists try to make a distinction between physical and spiritual Israel, as if it is one or the other, but the Israel of God is both. Those who are just physical descendants with out concomitant faith in the Word of their God will find themselves outside of the Kingdom of God.

Paul tells us in Galatians that the Abrahamic Covenant was the foundation of the Gospel --- and the promise of the Land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham is an integral part of that foundation.

It is the clear and unmistakable message of Acts 1 and Acts 15 and the prophets that Jesus will return to restore the Kingdom to Israel, as promised, and to reign over that Kingdom from Jerusalem, as promised.

179 posted on 05/22/2007 5:38:15 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
Preterists try to make a distinction between physical and spiritual Israel, as if it is one or the other, but the Israel of God is both. Those who are just physical descendants with out concomitant faith in the Word of their God will find themselves outside of the Kingdom of God.

Actually, all covenant theologians have affirmed that they are "both," and your attempt to drive a divide between physical and spiritual Israel as a teaching is simply false. The terms of the covenant were that the entire physical nation of Israel WOULD BE obedient to the covenant. However, there are clear statements within the Old Testament that repeated the threat that the disobedient and unbelieving would be "cut off" from their people. So, then, it is not "preterists" who highlight that it is possible to be a physical descendant of Abraham and NOT a recipient of the covenant blessings. God himself declared it. Indeed John the Baptist mocks the reliance on physical lineage when he calls the disobedient leaders "sons of snakes." The covenant blessings were for the "seed of the woman" which was ultimately Christ, of course. God further narrowed this to the "seed of Abraham" when He made the covenant promises to him. Indeed, Galatians says that God "preached the gospel" to Abraham by telling him that in HIS seed all the families of the earth would be blessed. Romans tells us that Abraham believed that promise and was justified, just like WE believe in the already unfolded promise, and are justified. One people, one message, one set of promises, one faith, many nations, with one physical group in the forefront.

The idea of a wooden "distinction" between physical and spiritual Israel is false, and the idea of a wooden distinction between the physical sons of Abraham and the spriritual sons of Abraham is also false. They are one. The promises to Abraham HAVE ALL MET THEIR FULFILLMENT in Christ. The idea that God has to get the "church" out of the way to fulfill his promises to "Israel" is simply unbiblical. Take out that lynchpin and all the stuff about premillineal raptures and the weird weird stuff you see in the dispensational rubric simply melts away because there is no need for it. The TRUE Israel (aka "the remnant") was always the church, and the church is the true Israel. ALL of the earliest church were Jews, and hopefully, there seems to be good cause in Romans to look for a greater revival of the Jews "back in" to the true faith, which should result in a conflagration of a worldwide "super revival" (or "life from the dead" as Paul puts it). Amen. Bring it, Lord Jesus, and bring it now.

That said, there is NO reason to assume that the promises made to Abraham's seed are restricted to a wooden literalism, especially when the Old and New Testament declare clearly that they are made to the children of Abraham's FAITH. Get that colossal error out of the way and the entire case for dispensational end times theology collapses.

186 posted on 05/22/2007 7:13:35 AM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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To: Uncle Chip
Paul tells us in Galatians that the Abrahamic Covenant was the foundation of the Gospel

NO. Rather Paul tells us that the Abrahamic Covenant IS the gospel. God preached it in advance to Abraham and he believed and was justified. In fact, that same gospel was in its most rude and crude form in the promise to Adam and his wife in the curse of the serpent. That ONE message of a coming savior was expanded through Abraham, Moses and the pictures of Christ in both the law and the sacrificial systems, throught he promise to David that his son would be a king who would reign forever, and then the promises in the prophets to the "remnant" regarding the "day of the lord." These are all part of the ONE promise of "GOD WILL BE WITH HIS PEOPLE TO RESCUE AND BLESS THEM." This is the solitary, unifying theme that spans the testaments. One promise, one people, one faith, one destiny, one God over all. It is historical Christianity, no matter which way we come down over a physical and literal millenium.

188 posted on 05/22/2007 7:29:32 AM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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