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To: PetroniusMaximus
You’ve already been called out for your dishonest use of the term “secret rapture”. Why use it again? You’re not going to pin that one me.

Do you deny that you teach such a doctrine? Again, there is a distinction in theology between a clear and open catching up of God's people (the dead in Christ rising first) to meet Christ in the air and return with him to judge the earth so that "Every eye shall see him" and the "secret" coming which is seen only by the church, when he surreptitiously whisks away the church, leaving behind only the befuddled heathen watching the "left behind" series, and frantically searching through Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahaye's works for a clue as to what happened. The HISTORICAL church has always taught the first. The latecomers to the game have taken the phrase and twisted it to mean something the scriptures simply do not teach. If you DENY teaching a "secret" coming of Christ that only his church sees, then I will retract the use of the word "secret." As it is, I can see you are a dispensationlist, so I am assuming you teach it. So, again, I ask, where is the biblical evidence for it?

Here’s support for the physical state of Israel in the end times...

Actually, no it isn't Let's look at it.

“They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Actually, this says nothing about a geopolitical state of Israel. It MIGHT (I believe it does) point to a return of Jews to Jerusalem, but that is a far far far cry from the restoration of a theonomic state in covenant with God.

As to the "signs in sun moon and stars" stuff, I fail to see how this references a geopolitical state of Israel at all. I don't have my charts in front of me, though.

As to your final reference, it is just a repeat of the first time you said it. Again, this is NO compelling evidence at all of a restoration of the Jewish nation state, and may well fit within the HISTORICAL view of the section that does not refer to such a nation state at all. These verses you cite fit equally well within the historical orthodox view of the end times, and cannot be cited as "proof" of anything. To qualify as evidence, they have to clearly teach "this is true and this is not true." These verses REQUIRE you to adopt your view of the end times and then you can pull them out and say "see, it says it right here!" Kind of like saying that I Thess 4 teaches a secret rapture, when it "teaches" no such thing. It is just a verse among many dispensationalists have hijacked and crammed into a system that NO ONE would ever come up with from Scripture itself. Again, that is why no one ever did until Darby came along, and he had help from Margaret McDonald.

162 posted on 05/21/2007 3:26:22 PM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
“Do you deny that you teach such a doctrine? “

Sure I deny it. There’s only one rapture. I think the Church goes through the tribulation - but with some kind of divine protection.

“Actually, this says nothing about a geopolitical state of Israel. It MIGHT (I believe it does) point to a return of Jews to Jerusalem, but that is a far far far cry from the restoration of a theonomic state in covenant with God.”

I DO NOT think there is evidence for the return of a functioning “theonimic state”. God doesn’t “restart” Israel. But there IS evidence for a physical Israel in the end times. They more than likely rebuild the Temple.

203 posted on 05/22/2007 11:01:54 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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