Posted on 05/13/2007 3:42:05 PM PDT by xangel0228
On Saturday, May 12th, a contingent of Traditional Catholics in San Antonio, TX perform their annual Pilgrimage along the Mission Trail to celebrate and remember the sacrifice and service of the original Catholic Missionaries that pioneered the Catholic Church in Texas.
The near 7 mile walk starts at Mission Concepcion and end at Mission Espada. At each mission, the group would stop and say a certain devotion, whether it be the Stations of the Cross, the Rosary, or the Litany of St. Joseph.
Sounds harmless, especially since the Missions received thousands of visitors a year, from all faiths, right?
Wrong.
When this contingent of Catholics arrived at the first mission, Mission Concepcion, they were told by an obviously nervous Park Ranger that they were not to enter the mission, by order or Archbishop Jose H. Gomez, the Archbishop of San Antonio.
(Excerpt) Read more at youngtraditionalcatholics.com ...
Our only source for this information is someone who thinks his “side” of Catholicism is incapable of doing anything misguided. (”Is Christ divided?” dear St. Paul ranted ...) This suggests a lack of objectivity that leaves plenty of “benefit of the doubt” for Archbishop Gomez.
I seriously doubt that Traditional Catholics, particularly SSPX, are mixing animism and pagan rites into their worship! From what I have read of the events in Mexico, it had to do with land disputes and the several warring parties down there - Protestant Evangelicals, ordinary Catholics, left wing “base community” Catholics, Marxists, and followers of pagan cults, all mixing it up over a non-religious dispute.
Traditional Catholics are pretty harmless. They are, by the way, not all members of these schismatic groups. And even the more extreme elements of the SSPX may foam at the mouth a lot, metaphorically speaking, and be unpleasant to be around, but they normally just a nuisance, even to those of their own community.
“Our only source for this information is someone who thinks his side of Catholicism is incapable of doing anything misguided. (Is Christ divided? dear St. Paul ranted ...) This suggests a lack of objectivity that leaves plenty of benefit of the doubt for Archbishop Gomez.”
Excuse me...but I think that I clearly stated that those who are sedevacanist/conclavist/dogmatists are doing something wrong.
And I love how those who are novus ordo apparently do no wrong..it’s only us traditionalists who are wrong.
My info was from several articles associated with the above link.
Is there a more accepted form of ‘Traditional Catholic’ which more closely abides in faith through Christ? I ask this sincerely.
My post was not to be argumentative, but respectful of many true believers who are Catholics through faith in Christ and hold their love for God through faith in Christ first before they promote other good works.
Recently, I have observed many reports and trends by those who do not have faith in Christ first, but seek to perform good works independent of God, thinking their religious and moral behavior is sufficient for rewards independent of faith in Christ. In other situations, I’ve also seen those who exhibit very antiChristian behavior attempt to build worldly systems in religious garb, riding on the coattails of the name “Catholic” in an attempt to promote false worldly systems counterfeiting God’s plan.
For example, there are many within communist nations such as Castro and Chavez, as well as some Nicaraguan groups which have attempted to substitute socialism for the Gospel. Since the Catholic Church is well recognized, those same groups seem to migrate their socialist priorities into the religious garb of Catholicism to counterfeit a fake gospel to those who have not known better.
The same movements appear to be headed north, perhaps accompanying those aliens encroaching here in the US.
Is the SSPX the same group which incarcerated evangelicals in Chiapas recently?
No where has someone claimed that “Novus Ordo Catholics” are incapable of doing wrong. I’ve never seen you post in the religion forum, but I suggest you do a search for anything about Cardinal Mahoney among others and you will find that you are very much mistaken.
But you did claim that Traditional Catholics aren’t well intentioned but misguided ever; caveating that with a rather large segment of the Traditional Movement (but by no means a majority). So you do think your side of the Traditional Movement is incapable of being misguided.
But you did claim that Traditional Catholics arent well intentioned but misguided ever; caveating that with a rather large segment of the Traditional Movement (but by no means a majority). So you do think your side of the Traditional Movement is incapable of being misguided”
A majority of Novus Ordians don’t even know if the Real Presence is for sure. I can’t blame them — with the “glad-handing” of the Host, etc. But thats a whole other topic.
The point here is that a Bishop... who will outreach to ther religons....allow them in these very same missions... will tell a contingent of harmless Catholics...that they are not “Catholic”...while he and his flock claim to be...that is hypocrisy.
So the Novus Ordo back yard needs to be clean up before any of mine gets looked at.
The sedevacanists/conclavists/dogmatists...they have problems.....but o the whole.. I think they are minor in comparison to the problems on the novus ordo side.
This is my last post for the night.
The source you offer says nothing to support your hatred for Traditional Roman Catholics, but you don't drop your venomous pen at this point. Now you write:
"Is the SSPX the same group which incarcerated evangelicals in Chiapas recently?"
May God have mercy on your lacking sense of spirituality.
Commanding His believers against bearing false witness is instructed by God no less than six times in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.
Evangelical Christians in Mexico Increasingly Persecuted by 'Traditional Catholics'
In the indigenous region of Chiapas state, traditional Catholics a blend of Catholicism and native religious practicesIn the indigenous region of Chiapas state, traditional Catholics a blend of Catholicism and native religious practices
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You’ve walked into a den of Modernists my dear.
Nothing you can say will change the minds of the neo Catholic FR Living Magisterium. Not the fact that Rome has declared repeatedly the SSPX is not in schism. No, they are More Authoritative than the Pope.
Truly.
I think you are slighlty mistaken. In no way am I condoning Bishop Garcia’s actions if true, nor am I saying that the Society is in Schism (though perhaps Bishop Williamson personally is). What I am saying is that the contention that only “Novus Ordo Catholics” are misguided but perhaps well-intentioned is not true. There are those on both sides of the issue. That is the issue I was taking with xangel.
I’m not mistaken. The guilty parties know who they are. Everyone has to account to God someday.
I’m the Cross of San Damiano according to your quiz.
Were I to say in full what I think regarding the reported actions of his lordship, Abp Gomez, I would be kicked off this forum.
I am so very tired of the hypocracy of this bishop and the multitude of others like him. I am afraid that he knows little about the Catholic faith and the Liturgy of his ancestors and he is IMO ill-suited for the position he holds. He sounds like a typical affirmative action appointee. Were I in his archdiocese, I would contribute not one nickel to support his mismanagement of the Church’s temporal resources.
Those Catholics who attend SSPX Masses have repeatedly been the object of persecution by the agents of Satan, who hold so much power in todays church.
We must pray for them and their persecutors.
“..., they have separated themselves from the Magisterium. “
With all respect dear sister, no, they have not.
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"SSPX Not in Schism" | |
Rome Has Spoken |
Michael J. Matt |
Editor, The Remnant |
In its No. 9, 2005 issue, the highly respected 30 Days featured an interview with Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission. The interview dealt with relations between Rome and the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) as well as other related matters. It can be found online at: http://www.30giorni.it/us/articolo_stampa.asp?id=9360 The interview is fast emerging as a major event since it contained several long-awaited admissions on the part of the Vatican with respect to the status of the late Archbishop Lefebvres priestly fraternity as well as the old Mass. The Remnant has often been accused of riding a dangerous trajectory towards schism for remaining friendly with the SSPX and defending them against the charge of schism. Our contention since the early 1990s has been that, while the SSPX certainly has an irregular standing vis-à-vis the Vatican (resulting from an in-Church dispute over the disastrous Second Vatican Council and the New Mass), this does not rise to the level of formal schism. Happily, the President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission has made that contention official. The pertinent excerpt from 30Days speaks for itself: Your Eminence, what was the nature of the audience granted by the Pope to the Superior General of the Saint Pius X Fraternity? DARÍOCASTRILLÓN HOYOS: The audience is part of a process that began with a very important intervention by the then Cardinal Ratzinger, who signed a protocol of agreement with Monsignor Lefebvre before the latter decided to proceed to the episcopal consecrations of 1988. Monsignor Lefebvre did not back off CASTRILLÓN HOYOS: Unfortunately Monsignor Lefebvre went ahead with the consecration and hence the situation of separation came about, even if it was not a formal schism. (Emphasis added) Just like that, a highly contentious issue thats been dividing Catholics since 1988 was settled. And its impossible to believe that a man in the Cardinals elevated position, with his closely guarded reputation for discretion, could have acted in this regard without the Popes foreknowledge. But, theres more. Weve all grown accustomed to the neo-Catholics charging all traditionalists with closet sedevacantism, especially the priests and bishops of the SSPX. Cardinal Hoyos put the lie to that as well: After the audience [between SSPX head Bishop Bernard Fellay and Pope Benedict on August 29, 2005) an authoritative cardinal suggested that the Fraternity should recognize the legitimacy of the present Pontiff CASTRILLÓN HOYOS: Unfortunately that is proof that within the Church, even at high levels, there is not always full knowledge of the Fraternity. The Fraternity has always recognized in John Paul II, and now in Benedict XVI, the legitimate successor of Saint Peter. That is not a problem. That then there are traditionalist groups that dont recognize the last popes, the so-called empty throne people, is another question that doesnt concern the Saint Pius X Fraternity. Next, the coup de grace. His Eminence conceded a point that traditionalists have been contesting for 35 yearsthat the old Mass was abrogated and, as such, requires a special permission or indult for use: It is known that the Saint Pius X Fraternity is asking the Holy See for a liberalization of the so-called Tridentine mass and a declaration affirming that this liturgy has never been abolished. CASTRILLÓN HOYOS: The mass of Saint Pius V has never been abolished That is, Pope Paul VI never actually abrogated the Tridentine Mass! Its still there just as it always has been, and the option called the Novus Ordo Missae is just thatan option, which Catholics are free to reject. End of story! Traditionalists win! We dont pretend to know why Cardinal Castrillón elected to make these statements which are now part of the permanent record, but, clearly, the debate is over. It is up to us now to try to use them to mend fences with those neo-Catholics whose polemic against traditionalism has just been totally annihilated. Perhaps this startling development will also lead to a ceasefire between traditional Catholics, allowing us to direct our ideological weaponry away from each other and toward the myriad enemies of the old Faith that need so desperately to be driven out of our Church. Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos is to be credited and heartily thanked for his refreshingly honest clarifications. Bishop Fellay in St. Paul On November 5, 2005, Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel (SSPX) in St. Paul played host to the superior general of the Society of St. Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay, who delivered a report on the negotiations between the SSPX and the Vatican. In the wake of the Aug. 29 meeting between Bishop Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger, Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, and Pope Benedict XVI, which lasted 35 minutes and took place at Castle Gandolfo, rumors began to fly about an imminent split inside the SSPX over a Campos-style capitulation. Catholic World Report went so far as to claim that Bishop Richard Williamson was reduced to playing the part of spoiler out of protest: But Bishop Richard Williamson, the most outspoken member of the SSPX hierarchy, is no diplomat. In a mid-summer Internet message to his followers, Bishop Williamson revealed the plans for Bishop Fellays meeting with the Popemaking it clear that he was not pleased by the prospect. As the news of Bishop Williamsons revelation filtered out, Vatican officialsalways speaking under the cloak of anonymityconfirmed that the meeting had been scheduled. (The Catholic World Report, October 2005, p. 22) As I listened to Fellays 3-hour presentation here in St. Paul, however, it became evident that the rumors were just thatrumors. He categorically denied that there is any split whatsoever inside the SSPX. In addition, a source close to Bishop Williamson confirmed the same thing to us, suggesting that rumors of an alleged split between Bishops Fellay and Williamson may even have been the concoction of certain entities which resent the Societys singular position as the non-compromising traditionalist heavyweight of the world. For three hours, a forthright Bishop Fellay discussed the history of the SSPX negotiations with the Vatican, beginning with the early meetings between Archbishop Lefebvre and Pope Paul VI, and culminating with details of Fellays own Aug. 29 meeting with the new Pope. Throughout his presentation he spoke with almost childlike awe and admiration for Archbishop Lefebvre, dispelling even the faintest whiff of any inclination to change the course charted by the revered Archbishop. He also touched upon the cautious optimism with which his Society had initially received news of the election of Cardinal Ratzinger. He referenced the many favorable-to-tradition statements uttered by the then-Cardinal Ratzinger over the years, which certainly verify that the new Pope was at least well aware of the crisis in the Church. In light of all that, said Fellay, Catholics were right to have that glimmer of hope where Pope Benedict was concerned, even if renewed disappointment remained a very real possibility. He admitted that it was the SSPX whod initially sought an audience with the Pope. Why? To show the Pope and the world that we are Catholics attached to Rome, as weve always been. He also discussed the most serious impasse to a reconciliation: The Second Vatican Council! He made it clear that it is the SSPXs resistance to the New Mass and Council that is at issue. And he explained exactly what Pope Benedict means by interpreting the Council in light of tradition, and warned his audience not to fall for the trap of a changing tradition. Still, Fellays intention is to keep open the lines of communication with the Vatican. Before the Aug. 29 meeting, he had sent a letter to the Pope enumerating the serious doctrinal questions that must be resolved if there is to be any hope for successful negotiations one day. During the meeting itself, there was some evidence of the Pope having read the letter, as he made references to topics raised in it. For example, during the meeting His Holiness conceded that there is indeed a state of emergency in the Church...a point that had only been discussed in Fellays preliminary letter. In other words, Bishop Fellays tactics seem to be as sound as they are Catholic. The traditional Catholic world seems to have in the bishops of the SSPX able-bodied representatives who are personally taking the traditional Catholic casenot deeper into the vast wastelands of Cyberspacebut directly to the feet of Peter himself. It is difficult to fathom why any serious traditionalist would regard this as anything less than a tremendous blessing, especially as there is no evidence of unjust compromise in the SSPX works. After his talk, I asked Bishop Fellay if he could assure us that the SSPX will never under any circumstances field a contingent at World Youth Day. I was only half joking; the Bishops answer was serious: No, never! It was obvious that he knew very well what I was getting at. Bishop Fellays talk prompted us to wonder if the SSPX might be inadvertently positioning itself to become one of the most significant influences on the beleaguered Vatican in the Church today. Its already applying serious traditionalist pressure on an aging and perhaps somewhat disillusioned hierarchy. With the Grace of God, who knows where that might lead. One is reminded of the story of the Nazi SS-Lieutenant Colonel Herbert Kappler who, after using every means at his disposal to try to crush the Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican, Msgr. Hugh OFlaherty during World War II, nevertheless found himself begging OFlaherty (whose story was dramatized in the 1983 film The Scarlet and the Black) to save his family after the Nazis retreated from Rome. OFlaherty never gave up on Kappler, even after the latter had been imprisoned for war crimes. In 1956 the Nazi was baptized in his prison cell by the Irish priest, and died a Roman Catholic. Whats the connection? Well, and as weve noted in these columns before, its just possible that the situation in the Church has spun so far out of control that even the Vatican is beginning to see the writing on the wall. Is it so unthinkable that some inside the Vatican would begin to envision a time in the not too distant future when the 400 priests of the SSPX could begin to resemble the Jesuits of old, capable of doing a great deal to restore some semblance of order to a chaotic Church that now faces the total disgrace of its priesthood, the disappearance of its Mass, and a veritable eruption of real schisms throughout the world? Could this be what our somewhat conflicted Pope has in mind? Probably not, but stranger things have happened, and, if I were pope and I found myself in charge of this monumental nightmareits what Id have in mind. The SSPX, then, seems to be in a very good position. It is most advantageous to the Traditionalist cause (and maybe even to the Vatican itself, down the road!) for the Society, which is not in schism, to remain where it is. As we see it, the SSPX should stay the course, which, from what I could gather on November 5th, is precisely what Bishop Fellay intends to do. Pray for him! |
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