WHAT IS THE NATURE OF CHRISTIAN LOVE? --It's full depth and breadth

I really didn't mean to be flip and cruel but when one's behavior is hurting others and they continually tell you that that is the case and you continue, it is wrong.

Early on in my marriage my husband would do something playful and it would hurt me because he didn't know his own strength. He'd say he was only playing and that he didn't do it that hard. I'd tell him, look, I know when I feel pain, you don't. It really didn't help until one day he lovingly grasped our infant son's leg and "gently" shook it as he talked to him. I didn't see the bruise until the next day and I took him to the doctor because I didn't know how he could have gotten such a bruise. The doctor saw it right away and pointed out the finger outlines of the bruise. My husband was devastated that he had hurt him but he learned his lesson.

Words don't cause bruises but they do inflict pain. I'm not above using my tongue as a sword to inflict wounds and words to cause pain but I try not to.

When the fruits of your tree become bitter, it is time to water and fertilize them. When your brother comes to you and says that you are causing pain and you ignore him and blame the pain you are causing on him, how can that be good?

If you were a Catholic, I'd recommend a retreat of prayer and discernment. One where you looked deeply into your own soul to discern your motives concerning God and religion in an attempt to find the path that Jesus wants you on.

God bless you, you were in my prayers for a long time last night and you will remain in my prayers.

1. What is the nature of God's Love?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

2. Is there any difference in Christ's Love??

3. How do we reconcile, manage living out God's model of Fierce Love AND Fierce Severity?

4. Is Christian Love 99% warm fuzzy and 1% severe or what?

5. How do we discern when to share the warm fuzzy aspects of Love and when the ruthless severity?

There is great wisdom in these answers. God works through every believer to bring out His will. It is persumptuous for us to think that if we throw five bucks into the offering we are doing a service to God. The children of Israel thought that they would conquer the mountain for God ((Num 14) much to their disappointment. They were persumptuous thinking things rest upon their shoulders. Joshua got a lesson in this when he asked the angel who side he was on and the angel replied neither but the Lord's. (Josh 6)

We can't do anything without God. God will effect His purpose through us in unknown ways. We are to rest on His promise that He will bring about His work in us. If we think we're following the footsteps of Christ, chances are we aren't.

6. How do we keep an accurate, discerning check on our motives as well as our actions--doing what we can to insure that they conform to God's Christian Love?

7. How do we Love whole-heartedly as unto The Lord while still being human?

8. How responsible are we for the results of our efforts to Love?

9. How long do we wait to judge whether we were truly Loving, or not?

10. How do we deal with perceptions of receivers and others that we haven't been loving when our spirit indicates and God indicates that we have?

11. Is the Severity of God less loving than God's warm fuzzies?

12. How can we minimize errors in Loving?

Love God and do what you want. He will direct your path.

What a lovely post!

Like I said elsewhere, I pass on voting. I do not think voting people off the island if a fair exercise. I frequently ignore your posts, because they are “satirical, fierce dramatizations”, and I usually plod away in my methodical, linear reasoning manner. If you yourself think that “satirical, fierce dramatizations” add value to the forum, you should continue making them, and otherwise, not. You don’t seem to break any rules.

My greatest objection is to large fonts and colors, as that is not fair to the other posters. But you did not ask about that, and the rules allow them.

Thanks tons for your wisdom and exhortation. I went to an RC retreat house for such some years ago. It could be worthwhile, again.

Beautiful answers.

Will try to respond more substantively tonight.

Thanks. Appreciate your perspective.

I guess I am asking how does one reconcile when the bible states something like:

Rom 5:5 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Yet reality says that it is not true.

I cherish any other inputs you may have in whatever form.

Q, I can't do any better than Harley's reply to you. So far, that's the benchmark on this thread. But, I do want to add just a couple of things. First, the ugly email that came your way should give you a measure of peace in that ugliness and sin is a problem for everyone. Not even one righteous person, Q, not even one.

I also want to say that what I think lurks beneath Protestant and Catholic friction is that on each side there ebbs a current of thought that taps into the idea that each is preaching to the condemned. If my perceptions are correct, and I think they are, that's poisonous thought, but it's part of centuries of animosity, so it's not likely to go away.

I once had a conversation with someone who told me that he didn't worry about Catholics having a good chance of being right with God, but he worried about Protestants. Though he would never admit that. If asked he would resort to the usual and customary, 'the Spirit goes where it will.'

One of the things that makes me trepidatious about really committing myself to the Reformed faith is that I've had the exprience that they consider Catholics (even if not all of them) damned. Now if that's the case then that includes my family, and that is something that I cannot be a party to. My family is every bit a part of God's people as I am. They are not lesser than me, their sins, qualitatively, stand no more of a chance of getting them damned, than mine do.

Let us pray that the bad blood between Protestants and Catholics abates. In ecumenical camps where great minds of Protestants and Catholics alike live together in peace, they avoid the discussions of what they disagree on because it's already a known thing, and has proved unamenable to change or progress. In other words, it's a dead end, so why continued to go there? Debate is good, but St. Paul warns against being filled with it.

Quix, you've done enough mea culpas here. Rest well, my friend, you searched your conscience, it was evident that you were grieved that you had hurt someone. Now shake the dust off your boots and refer to Harley's post regularly.

Finally, let me leave you with the following verse, I think it's from the early Church's Lactantius:

“One who long, in thickets and in brakes
Entangled, winds now this way, and now that,
His devious course uncertain, seeking home,
But finds at last a greensward smooth and large,
Courageous, and refreshed for future toil.”

I also want to say that what I think lurks beneath Protestant and Catholic friction is that on each side there ebbs a current of thought that taps into the idea that each is preaching to the condemned.

I can't speak for any other than myself but I would NEVER think that any human that God created is condemned. That is God's job.

I do believe that Catholicism gives you so many graces through the Sacraments, encounters with Christ that sustain you through the days, months and years, that urge you to set your sights on Christ and live with Him. I have often said that as a Methodist, I could have reaped the reward of Heaven but the Holy Spirit gave me the gift of seeking further and finding my faith home in the Catholic Church.

It was the Pharisees who thought that they were the only ones who did everything right while actually harming the real people of God, the widows who gave their mite, I don't think any good Christian would presume that another Christian, especially, would be condemned. I would have never participated in any of these threads except to defend Catholicism. I have no problem with people disagreeing with Catholicism, but the dessemination of untruths have to be defended. I no longer reply often because those untruths have been pointed out and the truth explained many times and those who want to accept them do and those who don't want to, pound it into the ground ad nauseum.

Never fear, your soul is in the hands of God, whoever you are and whatever you are, He is calling your name. He is your Father and He wants you to recognize him as your Father.

I also want to say that what I think lurks beneath Protestant and Catholic friction is that on each side there ebbs a current of thought that taps into the idea that each is preaching to the condemned

That is not what I was taught nor what I believe.

I guess I am asking how does one reconcile when the bible states something like:

Rom 5:5 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Yet reality says that it is not true.
= = =

Briefly . . . at the college.

Or the one about hope delayed . . .

I have a strong bias that Scripture is the foundational reality regardless of circumstances, appearances, feelings, contingencies etc.

But this has certainly been a troublesome issue in my life at several points in time.

I think one has to do all the spiritual disciplines that are routinely fitting, regardless . . .

and then,

WAIT ON THE LORD to sort it out; make sense out of it; redeem the situation and the time; etc.

all the while cooperating in doing the tasks at hand as best as one can discern them to be.

Complaining at God doesn’t help much at all. Can lengthen the wait.

Ignoring God—taking one’s marbles home in a huff and pretending He doesn’t exist certainly doesn’t help.

Doing one’s best to remain of broken and contrite heart with no resentment, bitterness or unforgiveness toward God &/OR others is still crucial . . .

If you have better answers, I’d love to read them.

THANKS TONS for your kind and thoughtful reply with much wisdom in it.

First, the ugly email that came your way should give you a measure of peace in that ugliness and sin is a problem for everyone. Not even one righteous person, Q, not even one.

INDEED. I'm keenly aware of that in my mirror. That was not a significant problem at all. It just screamed that the discord had reached an extreme degree and THAT troubled me greatly.

I also want to say that what I think lurks beneath Protestant and Catholic friction is that on each side there ebbs a current of thought that taps into the idea that each is preaching to the condemned. If my perceptions are correct, and I think they are, that's poisonous thought, but it's part of centuries of animosity, so it's not likely to go away.

Yes, I'm sure that's true. I think even the healthiest amongst us on both sides has AT LEAST the notion--probably somewhat realistic--that folks on the other side are at least MORE OFTEN in danger of hell-fire because of inherent flaws in THEIR group.

IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP dynamics and psychology is incredibly powerful. And, frankly, it's pretty straight-forwardly logical--IF we thought the other group was more right, we'd be in it.

I don't mind that much when RC's try to reach out to me and bring me into the loving fold of the RC edifice. That can be quite touching, depending. But the fierce hostility which ASSUMES, IS CERTAIN that I'm already with 1.5 feet in hell because I'm NOT ALREADY in the arms of Mother Mary--that gets a bit much fast.

I have no basic quarrel that's worth the bother with RC's who have a vibrant, functional remotely Biblical relationship with Jesus.

I have a lot of quarrel with folks in my own congregation who worship the pastor; the group; the customs; the doctrine etc. vs JESUS. And, I do think that lots of groups facilitate error and idolatry more than necessary. And, I class RC's as one of those groups. I don't expect the facts nor my perceptions of those facts to change this side of eternity.

But that does NOT mean that I think that every RC individual is an idol worshipper. God only knows 100% for absolutely certain.

But just as RC folks can have a valid argument in saying the snake handling idiocies are more than a little off just from observing the behavior; or another Pent/Char sleeping around with a secretary; or another doing obviously mentally ill things--all such are reasonable assertions given the BEHAVIORS involved. Reasonable inferences CAN be made and are reasonable to be made.

Similarly, idol worship regardless of whether it's the Pent/Char variety or the RC variety has SOME rather highly correlated behavioral indicators. Denial of that is . . . well . . . denial, regardless of the group.

But it appears persistently that we cannot talk about such on the RC side without folks going ballistic no matter what kind of language is used. That's troublesome.

I once had a conversation with someone who told me that he didn't worry about Catholics having a good chance of being right with God, but he worried about Protestants. Though he would never admit that. If asked he would resort to the usual and customary, 'the Spirit goes where it will.'

I don't have a great problem with REASONABLE IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP BIAS providing it doesn't seem to indicate utter cluelessness and blindness. I don't worry that every RC individual is hell-bound either. But many of those I've met who claimed to be RC's I'm concerned about because of obvious behavioral and self-report stuff indicating a great distance between them and Jesus. I feel the same way about Pent/Char folks who's behavioral indicators and self-report stuff indicate a great distance between them and Jesus.

But it is often very distressing hereon that my equanimity in considering the flaws of RC's and Pent/Char's as similar--that capacity and habit on my part to call a spade a spade in both camps seems to be ignored, dismissed, minimized, not even considered. All that seems to press the ballistic button is that I consider ANY RC to be less than perfect. That makes reasonable dialogue extremely problematic.

One of the things that makes me trepidatious about really committing myself to the Reformed faith is that I've had the exprience that they consider Catholics (even if not all of them) damned. Now if that's the case then that includes my family, and that is something that I cannot be a party to. My family is every bit a part of God's people as I am. They are not lesser than me, their sins, qualitatively, stand no more of a chance of getting them damned, than mine do.

No problem with agreeing with you on that score. I think that mentality was one of the things that Christ most railed at the pharisees about. They and their group no longer had ANY MONOPOLY on a RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. And further, RELIGION AS AN INSTITUTION WAS CORRUPT AND DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CORE. And I still think that He still feels that ALL RELIGION STILL IS CORRUPT TO THE CORE. And I believe that about every denomination, ism etc. It is man's efforts to reach God when God has provided the Jesus means of reaching man.

But we as humans are not comfortable until we are controlling some RELIGIOUS EDIFICE and thereby pretending that we are OK and Heaven bound BECAUSE WE FEEL IN CONTROL. And all the time God is saying--won't wash. Control is mine. SURRENDER--ALL! AND ESPECIALLY RELIGION.

Let us pray that the bad blood between Protestants and Catholics abates. In ecumenical camps where great minds of Protestants and Catholics alike live together in peace, they avoid the discussions of what they disagree on because it's already a known thing, and has proved unamenable to change or progress. In other words, it's a dead end, so why continued to go there? Debate is good, but St. Paul warns against being filled with it.

Good points. I don't like fruitless debate except I can handle it as a way to present stuff I think the lurkers need to have available to balance the other side.

I'm not in favor of globalist types of ecumunism at all. I think that's deadly and from the pit. But I am in favor of HOLY SPIRIT INITIATED collections of believers of all persuasions to worship God together and to learn of Him together in whatever ways are truly Spirit-Led and practically functional.

Quix, you've done enough mea culpas here. Rest well, my friend, you searched your conscience, it was evident that you were grieved that you had hurt someone. Now shake the dust off your boots and refer to Harley's post regularly.

THANKS THANKS. I'm probably an exaggerated person even in mea culpas. LOL. Goes with the territory, it seems. But I'm winding down. Thanks much for the exhortation. I'd rather be overly thorough than miss something important.

Finally, let me leave you with the following verse, I think it's from the early Church's Lactantius:

“One who long, in thickets and in brakes Entangled, winds now this way, and now that, His devious course uncertain, seeking home, But finds at last a greensward smooth and large, Courageous, and refreshed for future toil.”

That would be welcome--it's been a long time in this thicket! BLESS YOU TONS for your kind and timely words and exhortations. LUBS, Q

It was the Pharisees who thought that they were the only ones who did everything right while actually harming the real people of God, the widows who gave their mite, I don’t think any good Christian would presume that another Christian, especially, would be condemned. I would have never participated in any of these threads except to defend Catholicism. I have no problem with people disagreeing with Catholicism, but the dessemination of untruths have to be defended. I no longer reply often because those untruths have been pointed out and the truth explained many times and those who want to accept them do and those who don’t want to, pound it into the ground ad nauseum.

Never fear, your soul is in the hands of God, whoever you are and whatever you are, He is calling your name. He is your Father and He wants you to recognize him as your Father.

= = =

Thanks for your wise words.

"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.
For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes.
They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.
The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.
For the Egyptians shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, Their strength is to sit still.
Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." -- Isaiah 30:1-21

"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." -- 1 Thess. 5:24

AMEN.

A sobering passage, imho.

Thanks much.

This is a bit more difficult than I thought. Must ponder this overnight.

3. How do we reconcile, manage living out God's model of Fierce Love AND Fierce Severity?
4. Is Christian Love 99% warm fuzzy and 1% severe or what?

5. How do we discern when to share the warm fuzzy aspects of Love and when the ruthless severity?

Quix, This thread has troubled me for the past 24 hours since I first discovered it. I even lost some sleep thinking how to respond. I will give you my vote at the end of this post but I think that you will guess it before then.

First of all, let me say that although I am sure from all your comments all of your questions are serious and heartfelt BUT the questions listed above are a false dichotomy.

Love is defined neither by “warm fuzzies” nor by “fierce severity”. I would certainly use fierce severity to defend my family and warm affection to calm a child but neither emotion or mood makes my actions loving. Love is something else. In other words, your very questions are creating unwanted confusion.

I am surprised that no one yet has quoted the central passage on love , I Corinthians 13 to help in your quandary. As you are well aware, this chapter, sandwiched between two chapters on the use of spiritual gifts provides the believers at Corinth with a godly alternative to ego and power as a motivation for exercising the gifts of the Spirit.

Chapter 13 is completely misused by those who think in terms of “warm fuzzies” or gentle poetry or pictures of newly-weds or little puppies. It is a non-negotiable statement of what our motivation must be in the Christian life. Paul tells us that without it we are NOTHING!

So, what is real love like as a motivation? Here is the English Standard Version of verses 4 – 6 broken into bite-sized statements:

Love is patient and kind

* love does not envy or boast

* it is not arrogant or rude.

* It does not insist on its own way;

* it is not irritable or resentful;

* it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

* Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Now, remember that this, not warm fuzzies OR fierceness, is supposed to govern our use of the gifts and our ministry.

I do not believe that we have authority to do everything God does UNLESS we have the necessary divine attributes to go with it.

You cannot rightly call people hypocrites and sons of the devil unless we know their hearts as Jesus did.

You cannot use the strong language with people that Jesus did unless you know that they can receive it as the woman at the well did (John 4). Remember Jesus “knew what was in man”. Unless you are given divine revelation, be extremely careful. Follow I Cor 13.

You most certainly cannot take away the lives of someones children, his entire wealth, and his health as God permitted Job to experience unless you are able to replace all of those things.

Your fundamental responsibility is to obey the list above.

I have seen the phrase, “believes all things, hopes all things” understood as implying that we are to always hope for and expect the best of others.

In the years I have spent on this forum, the mutual attacks I have seen by fundamentalists, Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed, Church of Christ, etc. etc. has sickened me. Not because of debate and disagreement. I enjoy a good debate hand have strong theological views. Rather, my disgust is because Christian Freepers discard I Cor 13:4-6 as a rule of life. Our hateful wrangling brings disgrace on the name of our Lord.

I vote “counterproductive”.

Thank you.

Your post brings to mind the words of St. Teresa of Avila:
“This is not a time for believing in everyone. Believe only those whom you see modeling their lives on Christ.”

May all of us—whatever profession of Christianity we may have—model our lives on Christ and seal our consciences with the words of St. Paul to the Corinthians.

You cannot use the strong language with people that Jesus did unless you know that they can receive it as the woman at the well did (John 4). Remember Jesus “knew what was in man”. Unless you are given divine revelation, be extremely careful. Follow I Cor 13.

Your fundamental responsibility is to obey the list above.
= = =

Thanks tons. A most excellent reply. And, it resonates very nearly to my own sense of things.

I would quibble somewhat with the first paragraph above. Christ spoke sternly to the Pharisees when it was clear they would not receive His comments as the woman at the well did. And, as I’ve noted, I’ve had many, many incidents where such WAS fruitful for their lives and for The Kingdom.

Nevertheless, The voting is 7 as counter productive to 3 otherwise. So, I’m willing to go with my commitment.