Q, I can't do any better than Harley's reply to you. So far, that's the benchmark on this thread. But, I do want to add just a couple of things. First, the ugly email that came your way should give you a measure of peace in that ugliness and sin is a problem for everyone. Not even one righteous person, Q, not even one.
I also want to say that what I think lurks beneath Protestant and Catholic friction is that on each side there ebbs a current of thought that taps into the idea that each is preaching to the condemned. If my perceptions are correct, and I think they are, that's poisonous thought, but it's part of centuries of animosity, so it's not likely to go away.
I once had a conversation with someone who told me that he didn't worry about Catholics having a good chance of being right with God, but he worried about Protestants. Though he would never admit that. If asked he would resort to the usual and customary, 'the Spirit goes where it will.'
One of the things that makes me trepidatious about really committing myself to the Reformed faith is that I've had the exprience that they consider Catholics (even if not all of them) damned. Now if that's the case then that includes my family, and that is something that I cannot be a party to. My family is every bit a part of God's people as I am. They are not lesser than me, their sins, qualitatively, stand no more of a chance of getting them damned, than mine do.
Let us pray that the bad blood between Protestants and Catholics abates. In ecumenical camps where great minds of Protestants and Catholics alike live together in peace, they avoid the discussions of what they disagree on because it's already a known thing, and has proved unamenable to change or progress. In other words, it's a dead end, so why continued to go there? Debate is good, but St. Paul warns against being filled with it.
Quix, you've done enough mea culpas here. Rest well, my friend, you searched your conscience, it was evident that you were grieved that you had hurt someone. Now shake the dust off your boots and refer to Harley's post regularly.
Finally, let me leave you with the following verse, I think it's from the early Church's Lactantius:
“One who long, in thickets and in brakes
Entangled, winds now this way, and now that,
His devious course uncertain, seeking home,
But finds at last a greensward smooth and large,
Courageous, and refreshed for future toil.”
I can't speak for any other than myself but I would NEVER think that any human that God created is condemned. That is God's job.
I do believe that Catholicism gives you so many graces through the Sacraments, encounters with Christ that sustain you through the days, months and years, that urge you to set your sights on Christ and live with Him. I have often said that as a Methodist, I could have reaped the reward of Heaven but the Holy Spirit gave me the gift of seeking further and finding my faith home in the Catholic Church.
It was the Pharisees who thought that they were the only ones who did everything right while actually harming the real people of God, the widows who gave their mite, I don't think any good Christian would presume that another Christian, especially, would be condemned. I would have never participated in any of these threads except to defend Catholicism. I have no problem with people disagreeing with Catholicism, but the dessemination of untruths have to be defended. I no longer reply often because those untruths have been pointed out and the truth explained many times and those who want to accept them do and those who don't want to, pound it into the ground ad nauseum.
Never fear, your soul is in the hands of God, whoever you are and whatever you are, He is calling your name. He is your Father and He wants you to recognize him as your Father.
That is not what I was taught nor what I believe.
First, the ugly email that came your way should give you a measure of peace in that ugliness and sin is a problem for everyone. Not even one righteous person, Q, not even one.
INDEED. I'm keenly aware of that in my mirror. That was not a significant problem at all. It just screamed that the discord had reached an extreme degree and THAT troubled me greatly.
I also want to say that what I think lurks beneath Protestant and Catholic friction is that on each side there ebbs a current of thought that taps into the idea that each is preaching to the condemned. If my perceptions are correct, and I think they are, that's poisonous thought, but it's part of centuries of animosity, so it's not likely to go away.
Yes, I'm sure that's true. I think even the healthiest amongst us on both sides has AT LEAST the notion--probably somewhat realistic--that folks on the other side are at least MORE OFTEN in danger of hell-fire because of inherent flaws in THEIR group.
IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP dynamics and psychology is incredibly powerful. And, frankly, it's pretty straight-forwardly logical--IF we thought the other group was more right, we'd be in it.
I don't mind that much when RC's try to reach out to me and bring me into the loving fold of the RC edifice. That can be quite touching, depending. But the fierce hostility which ASSUMES, IS CERTAIN that I'm already with 1.5 feet in hell because I'm NOT ALREADY in the arms of Mother Mary--that gets a bit much fast.
I have no basic quarrel that's worth the bother with RC's who have a vibrant, functional remotely Biblical relationship with Jesus.
I have a lot of quarrel with folks in my own congregation who worship the pastor; the group; the customs; the doctrine etc. vs JESUS. And, I do think that lots of groups facilitate error and idolatry more than necessary. And, I class RC's as one of those groups. I don't expect the facts nor my perceptions of those facts to change this side of eternity.
But that does NOT mean that I think that every RC individual is an idol worshipper. God only knows 100% for absolutely certain.
But just as RC folks can have a valid argument in saying the snake handling idiocies are more than a little off just from observing the behavior; or another Pent/Char sleeping around with a secretary; or another doing obviously mentally ill things--all such are reasonable assertions given the BEHAVIORS involved. Reasonable inferences CAN be made and are reasonable to be made.
Similarly, idol worship regardless of whether it's the Pent/Char variety or the RC variety has SOME rather highly correlated behavioral indicators. Denial of that is . . . well . . . denial, regardless of the group.
But it appears persistently that we cannot talk about such on the RC side without folks going ballistic no matter what kind of language is used. That's troublesome.
I once had a conversation with someone who told me that he didn't worry about Catholics having a good chance of being right with God, but he worried about Protestants. Though he would never admit that. If asked he would resort to the usual and customary, 'the Spirit goes where it will.'
I don't have a great problem with REASONABLE IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP BIAS providing it doesn't seem to indicate utter cluelessness and blindness. I don't worry that every RC individual is hell-bound either. But many of those I've met who claimed to be RC's I'm concerned about because of obvious behavioral and self-report stuff indicating a great distance between them and Jesus. I feel the same way about Pent/Char folks who's behavioral indicators and self-report stuff indicate a great distance between them and Jesus.
But it is often very distressing hereon that my equanimity in considering the flaws of RC's and Pent/Char's as similar--that capacity and habit on my part to call a spade a spade in both camps seems to be ignored, dismissed, minimized, not even considered. All that seems to press the ballistic button is that I consider ANY RC to be less than perfect. That makes reasonable dialogue extremely problematic.
One of the things that makes me trepidatious about really committing myself to the Reformed faith is that I've had the exprience that they consider Catholics (even if not all of them) damned. Now if that's the case then that includes my family, and that is something that I cannot be a party to. My family is every bit a part of God's people as I am. They are not lesser than me, their sins, qualitatively, stand no more of a chance of getting them damned, than mine do.
No problem with agreeing with you on that score. I think that mentality was one of the things that Christ most railed at the pharisees about. They and their group no longer had ANY MONOPOLY on a RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. And further, RELIGION AS AN INSTITUTION WAS CORRUPT AND DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CORE. And I still think that He still feels that ALL RELIGION STILL IS CORRUPT TO THE CORE. And I believe that about every denomination, ism etc. It is man's efforts to reach God when God has provided the Jesus means of reaching man.
But we as humans are not comfortable until we are controlling some RELIGIOUS EDIFICE and thereby pretending that we are OK and Heaven bound BECAUSE WE FEEL IN CONTROL. And all the time God is saying--won't wash. Control is mine. SURRENDER--ALL! AND ESPECIALLY RELIGION.
Let us pray that the bad blood between Protestants and Catholics abates. In ecumenical camps where great minds of Protestants and Catholics alike live together in peace, they avoid the discussions of what they disagree on because it's already a known thing, and has proved unamenable to change or progress. In other words, it's a dead end, so why continued to go there? Debate is good, but St. Paul warns against being filled with it.
Good points. I don't like fruitless debate except I can handle it as a way to present stuff I think the lurkers need to have available to balance the other side.
I'm not in favor of globalist types of ecumunism at all. I think that's deadly and from the pit. But I am in favor of HOLY SPIRIT INITIATED collections of believers of all persuasions to worship God together and to learn of Him together in whatever ways are truly Spirit-Led and practically functional.
Quix, you've done enough mea culpas here. Rest well, my friend, you searched your conscience, it was evident that you were grieved that you had hurt someone. Now shake the dust off your boots and refer to Harley's post regularly.
THANKS THANKS. I'm probably an exaggerated person even in mea culpas. LOL. Goes with the territory, it seems. But I'm winding down. Thanks much for the exhortation. I'd rather be overly thorough than miss something important.
Finally, let me leave you with the following verse, I think it's from the early Church's Lactantius:
“One who long, in thickets and in brakes Entangled, winds now this way, and now that, His devious course uncertain, seeking home, But finds at last a greensward smooth and large, Courageous, and refreshed for future toil.”
That would be welcome--it's been a long time in this thicket! BLESS YOU TONS for your kind and timely words and exhortations. LUBS, Q