Posted on 04/17/2007 8:44:15 PM PDT by Terriergal
SAN CRISTOBAL DE LAS CASAS, Mexico – Juan Mendez Mendez became a Christian in a village outside of this city in Chiapas state on April 7, and two days later local authorities put him in jail – for leaving their religious blend of Roman Catholicism and native custom.
A catechist or doctrinal instructor in the “traditionalist Catholic” church in the village of Pasté (pahs-TEH), the 25-year-old Mendez was released on Tuesday (April 10) after spending the night in jail. The previous Easter Sunday, political bosses in the Tzotzil Maya village noticed him missing from a church festival involving what Mendez considered to be idolatrous rites; they summoned him that evening.
“They said, ‘What do you mean that you’ve accepted Christ – you mean you don’t believe in our gods [Catholic saints]?’” Mendez told Compass. “And I said, ‘Well, those were just apostles, and now I belong to Christ.’”
The town leaders threatened to jail Mendez, and the following day they summoned him again after consulting with villagers, including other catechists. Mendez verified to them that he had heard the gospel in another community and now wanted to become part of an Alas de Aguila (Eagle’s Wings) church in Pasté, he said.
The officials threatened to strip him and throw cold water on him in jail, Mendez said. “You know what else we’re going to do?” one of them told the father of three pre-school children. “We’re going to beat you. We’re going to hit you.”
Mendez said he replied, “‘You know, if you’re going to beat me, then here I am. Here I am, if you’re going to beat me.’ But another said, ‘No, we’re not going to beat him.’”
After questioning Pasté Alas de Aguila pastor Jose Gomez Hernandez – confirming that Mendez planned to attend his church, though he had not yet had the opportunity to do so – village officials decided to jail the new Christian last Monday night (April 9).
Members of the Alas de Aguila church were allowed to visit him. He said he told one of them, “If I have to be a prisoner, I have no other alternative but to continue pressing forward.” He added that his wife, who put her trust in Christ along with Mendez, “despite this situation has been very happy, and in her faith she wants to press forward also.”
Mendez was not hurt while in jail from 5 p.m. to 6:30 a.m. and was released without further threats, he said, though another Alas de Aguila pastor, Antonio Vasquez, said “there is certainly a threat.”
“What is further painful to me,” Pastor Vasquez told Compass, “is that the brethren in our church continue to contribute to and participate in the pagan festivals, because if they don’t the local authorities will take all these people to jail.”
Compass declined to contact Pasté village head Mariano Lopez Gomez, as an international news agency questioning him or other village officials about the jailing of Mendez could result in further abuse of the fledgling Christian. Pastor Vasquez said that in the municipality of Zinacatan, to which Pasté belongs, local traditionalist Catholic officials in some of the area’s 46 communities prohibit any form of evangelization.
“There are still areas where they do not permit the gospel,” he said. “They don’t want it, and they reject it to the point that there are some brothers who have been prisoners in other communities.”
Home Burned, Family Tortured
Vasquez, whose church has grown to 60 to 80 mainly Tzotzil- or Tzeltal-speaking people since he began it in 1996, is no stranger to area persecution from traditionalist Catholics.
In 1998, local political bosses (caciques) put him in jail for 24 hours without food. In 2000, he was released from jail only after the intervention of Chiapas Religious Affairs officials – who promptly demanded that he contribute to and participate in the traditionalist Catholic religious festivals, which the pastor said amounted to a denial of his faith.
“An attorney from the government told me, ‘You know what? I’m a Christian, but you have to do what we say,’” Pastor Vasquez recalled. “And I told her, ‘As an authority you cannot obligate me to deny my faith, because, as you know very well, that goes against the constitution. Secondly, as a Christian, you cannot obligate me to deny my faith and all the things that my faith requires.’ So she was left something ashamed.”
The state religious affairs ministry had more success forcing his congregation to commit to participating in the traditionalist Catholic rites, which bring caciques not only festival fees but alcohol sales income. The congregation subsequently abandoned him, Pastor Vasquez said.
“They said to me, ‘You like to get into trouble, and we don’t want trouble, so we’ve signed the agreement with the government,’” Pastor Vasquez said. He was going to leave the area, but he said God told him two things: “Cowards flee,” and “Cowards have no part in me.”
Hence he signed the government agreement, which allowed him to continue preaching as long as he contributed to and participated in the traditionalist Catholic festivals – something “very painful,” he said. The church grew so much, however, that by August 20, 2000, the caciques again jailed him, his father and his two brothers – and burned down his house.
“The next day, when they took me out of jail and to the municipal manager, he told me, ‘Hey, Antonio, how was it that you came to burn down your house?’” Pastor Vasquez said. “I said, ‘How am I, a prisoner, going to burn down my house?’ He said, ‘Go see your mother,’ because my mother and my two younger sisters had remained at home.”
Pastor Vasquez found that his family members were able to flee the house, which was reduced to ashes.
He managed to build a house from donated wood and sheets of laminate for a roof, but local authorities cut his water line and electricity. He has lived by candle light, cistern capture and water sold from vendors for the past six years.
Chiapas state officials had secured an agreement from local chieftains to restore the pastor’s water and electricity, but secretly they conspired to let leave him without the services, he said. The last statement on the matter that Pastor Vasquez heard from a state official was, “Forget about it – nothing can be done.”
No longer contributing funds or participating in the alcohol-drenched festivals that pay homage to Catholic saints, in 2004 Pastor Vasquez found his father and brothers jailed while he was preaching in another city. The caciques stripped them and threw cold water on them, he said, as well as stung them with chile juices and a sprayed chemical compound that burns the skin.
They were freed only after intervention from state officials.
Because of the complicity of government agencies, “It’s easy for these kinds of abuses to be carried out with impunity,” said Esdras Alonso Gutierrez, head of San Cristobal’s ministry of religious affairs and founder of the Alas de Aguila movement.
“The situation in the areas around San Cristobal has calmed in San Juan Chamula, but beginning in 1998-2000, violence in the region outside of San Juan Chamula has been increasing,” Alonso told Compass. “In the last Chiapas administration under Gov. Pablo Salazar, there were no murders in San Juan Chamula, but there has been persecution in other areas: Huistan, Zinacatan, Las Margaritas, San Cristobal de las Casas, Ocosingo and La Trinitaria, among others.”
Copyright 2007 Compass Direct News
Even if one doubts the story’s legitimacy, anyone not willing to condemn this action even in the hypothetical has made a god of their church. I would condemn Southern Baptists if the had done this. You would likely do it for any charismatic/Pentecostals had done so. Those unwilling to condemn it on the RC side say a lot by their defensive stance and their silence.
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That sure rings true to my spirit and my intellect.
And, the eyes of Mendez do not indicate a flakey person, to me.
Oh, well! That settles it then.
/sarc
Seriously, that's a rational process? We know the identity of the group that attacked him because of his eyes?
I have answered your question many times. You are now harassing me. Stop it.
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Excellent points.
I virtually wholesale agree.
I do NOT, however, believe that we need to kowtow to pharisees in our behavior any more than Christ did. Else we'd be living in a coffin in a straight jacket before too many pharisees had passed our way and exhorted us about their sensibilities.
Yet, there is a time and a place to avoid offending a brother needlessly--out of a motivation of Love for Our Lord and ONE ANOTHER.
Certainly ANYTHING AND ANYONE that takes PRIORITY over God Almighty, Our Lord Jesus, His Spirit--has assumed an idol's place in our lives.
And, certainly greed, lust, glutony, negativism, vain glory, rituals [WHICH EVERY congregation has] etc. can all become comforts and priorities above God as Comfort and God as Supreme Priority.
In many respects, I think that Proties are MORE guilty than perhaps most RC's because Proties are inclined to think that THOSE IDOLATROUS RC'S OVER !THERE! are GUILTY! While we non-idol tolerating Proties HERE are saintly. Already, the distinction between RC and Proty seems to be somewhat of an idol in that attitude.
But there are myriads of other examples in every congregation of every stripe I've ever been in. It can be leader worship; ritual worship; style of music worship; structure worship; organization worship; LIST OF DOCTRINAL DISTINCTIVES, A PARTICULAR liturgy; The Bible ink on pages vs the LIving Word Jesus; OUR congregations' CUSTOMS AND !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! . . . the list is endless.
And what seems to be so very difficult to get across effectively is that COMFORT is a very short step from idolatry. Taking UNDUE, UNFITTING COMFORT in else but GOD IS idolatry.
I think we also fail to understand that THE OBSERVER REALLY DOES LIKELY SEE THE GAME BETTER vis a vis our own idolatries. And we are wise to listen prayerfully and discerningly to their input. Certainly this has been true in my own life. I try to make it a habit periodically to inquire of folks who don't often see eye to eye with me and see if they discern any such in my life currently. It's not fool proof but it helps supplement Holy Spirit's direct exhortations which I may have turned a deaf ear to in this or that area.
Thanks tons.
The error is in not recognizing this and falling to our feet in remorse before God. Instead, some encourage the creation of idols and insist there are additional mediators between God and men other than the man, Christ Jesus.
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Excellent points. Thanks.
Points worth prayerfully pondering, imho.
A simple “these people do not reflect Catholic principles” would do. Instead, the topic is switched to the “condemnation of Catholics” by us evil protestants.
Westboro BAPTIST church does a lot of things in the name of Baptists that I condemn outright. Many of the Catholics early in the thread condemned this. Some immediately poked at its legitimacy as if the wide umbrella which is Catholicism could not possibly have some rogues in its midst. Others blamed the victim. Your first post appears to be to jump all over Quix.
So, no, just because a few condemned this does not excuse the rest of you. You take the wind out of the sails of arguments against Catholicism by admitting when there are rogues abusing the name. By saying things like “the jerks got what they deserved” and attacking the messenger you make the rest of us think that this really is an element of what is acceptably practiced Catholicism. History backs up that assumption as well to the point that in lesser educated countries, the rule of the inquisition has not entirely gone away.
But the Catholic would not lift his eyes to heaven and said, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner."
The Protestant, seeing the Catholic's lips move, went up to him, got in his face, and said,"You're in favor of pagans calling themselves Catholic and persecuting evangelicals, aren't you? If you aren't, why don't you protest it? You're praying to a dead person, aren't you? You're praying to a stock of wood, aren't you? You think God is a piece of bread, don't you? Give me a yes or no answer! Wait, don't listen to me, listen to me! Don't answer me! Don't tell me what you're doing, I won't listen! I know everything better than you! I know YOU better than YOU! I can see into your heart. I am so enlightened that I can insult you and mock you and tell all manner of things about you falsely, and seize on any pretext to put you down, because..I, uh, why because I am so much more HUMBLE, yeah, that's it, HUMBLE than you are. I've studied, but I'm not proud of my works, as you are. I've read the Bible but I'm NOT proud of my works, as you are. I have data and degrees but I'm NOT proud of my works, as you are! You obey some person I don't know (But I know he's corrupt tot he core), while I obey only my own mind because MY intra-psychic events are all from God. As for you, we do not know where you come from. You are LOST, because hyou are not saved according to MY scheme of salvation and according to MY timetable, but I am saved because I am humble and leave everything to God -- but I am not proud of my humility."
I tell you, I have no clue who was more justified than the other, but I do know the Catholic went down from the temple shaking his head with amazement. He resolved never to converse with the Protestant again -- or at least not until the Protestant got his prescription changed -- but he also resolved to pray for him.
I am happy that some have found my contributions here useful. Bye.
Amen brother!
It is our duty as Christians to condemn this persecution, whomever is responsible.
This reveals volumes of the writer's perspective. When one is in fellowship with God, all things are in His hands and nothing unrighteous offends the believer in faith through Christ. On the contrary, one reporting that they 'feel' offended is a strong indicator of arrogant thinking in that person's past thought patterns.
Whenever brute reality touches upon the thinking of the arrogant, there is a reaction, rather than a response through faith in Christ.
An attempt by a person, believer or unbeliever, to make order out of disorder, to perform a humanly good work, without faith in Christ, molds that person's thinking in a worldly fashion. When faced with brute reality which conflicts with the worldly belief, the worldly thinker independent of faith in Christ tends to react rather than respond, feel rather than faithfully rely through Christ, with further degeneration of the person's thinking processes.
Initial stages of cosmic thinking are associated with grieving the Holy Spirit. Later stages involve quenching the Holy Spirit.
Even after a believer returns to God through faith in Christ, by first returning the focus of his thinking on Him through faith in Christ (repentance), and by confessing all post salvation sins, known and unknown, by simple direct prayer of the believer to god, again through faith in Christ, then God in His immutable nature is free to further sanctifiy the believer in their walk with Him (1st John 1:9). Note that even after returning to God, the believer who has backslidden in arrogance has scarred his thinking processes. This doesn't mean God the Holy Spirit isn't able to repair those scars, but such changes require faith, which is only given by God and the consequences of past sin result in evil which requires time to heal. Additionally, the relearning of Bible doctrine and flowing of that doctrine (faith) through the mind and the heart(mind and heart comprise the soul) of the believer becomes a repetitive process, which the believer could have been further advanced in his walk had he not previously sinned, but continued in faithfulness with God in His walk, affording God greater opportunity to further grow and sanctify the faithful believer.
Whenever we 'feel' offended, we have a strong indicator for us to immediately return to Him, allow Him to handle the situation,
I have NO hatred for you as people, as a group, as individuals. I just don't. I do try to hate only satan and sin. I'm getting where I might not even hate Shrillery. But I certainly hate what she stands for and does. But I hate some of the things I still do in spite of myself. And I hate seeing a Brother or Sister fall to less than God's highest, too. I want the best for all my Brothers and Sister, including RC's.
The syncritism is NOT merely alleged. RC's have affirmed the truth of that fact. I'd have thought that basic integrity would have noted that.
I was rather grieved and mystified by the initial RC responses. It DID SEEM, SOUND, LOOK, FEEL LIKE RC's WERE APPROVING OR WHITE WASHING HORRIBLE VIOLENCE IN THEIR NAME. That's one reason I took so long to respond. I was mystified and shocked. I wanted to prayerfully ponder longer. That's just the record in the above posts in this thread. The word choices, the sentence structure, the points made, the issues presented ALL contributed to a list of posts seeming to clearly excuse the violence because it was RC violence.
I didn't write those posts giving taht tone, attitude, content of a response--RC's did.
If, as you argue, silence means approval, (RM et. al.:NOTE this is a reductio ad absurdum and not a charge meant to be taken seriously) then we already know that you approve of lies against Catholics. That's why I limited my question to violence. Personally I don't like lies against Protestants OR against Catholics, but evidently that is not a scruple shared by many here.
Not so. I don't like lies even against Shrillery. Certainly not against Brothers and Sisters in The Lord.
However, you assert that our allegations of idol worship are lies. We could, if we had a list of say videoed observations, assert that the actions of a number of RC's speak louder than the words saying there is no idol worship. And it's not merely excusible on grounds of what's going on in the interior of the mind and heart. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and the speech is often idolatrous--often by plain definition common to the language.
faulty Mariology = faulty Christology. Solving out the common parts . . . MARY = CHRIST.
That's plain idolatry. There's no weaseling around it. That's plain idolatry. I didn't write that. An RC did. Rationalizing it will not work. The truth of it remains. That's not a lie. That's a blatant, brazen fact. In fact, it has the structure of a mathematical fact.
There have been many other examples that have appeared on many threads. One vivid example is that a poster might disparage some aspect of Christ in a thread. RC's have no significant trouble letting that pass on by uncommented on or minimally commented on. But let a very slight PERCEIVED assault on Mary or the images or the rituals or the MAGICSTERICAL be posted and it seems like the RC'S are foaming at the mouth in hostile response. Clearly, the idols cause a MUCH STRONGER EMOTIONAL RESPONSE AND DEFENSE THAN EVEN JESUS OUR LORD DOES. That's exceedingly telling.
The satire only serves to highlight the mockery that the actions of the RC edific makes of the simple Gospel by it's hogwash.
AH! That's an interesting, no doubt insightful and understanding approach to dialogue. You reach out by insult. YOU persuade by mocking. You start out by KNOWING that you are right and we are wrong. What basis for conversation is there then? Like the Romans and the Pharisees, you justify insult because you just KNOW we're vicious.
I, of course, see it differently. I highlight the mockery inherent in the RC behaviors, customs, policies, rituals, edifice etc. in, hopefully, a way that pulls the covers back more on their absurdities, hypocrisies. None of us enjoys that. But other approaches have proven to have little to NO impact. I'd rather have folks angry with me and leave them with something hard to forget so that Holy Spirit can persistently bug them about it . . . than to say something wimpy and forgotten in 2 seconds. The issues are that important and the people are that important.
You realize, of course, unless your school of psychology is very different from those with which I am familiar, that there is no hope for friendship, dialogue, or cooperation if you hold to that attitude.
Actually, I know nothing of the kind. I've formed some of my closest friendships with folks who tried to wake me up with the harshest and even most viscious satire and mocking. They didn't even have a saintly motive. They were just angry with me and enjoyed belittling me. But I tried to learn from any shred of truth that they may have had in their assertions and go on to break through the emotions and build a relationship. I was amazed at how often that was possible to great benefit of both.
THE MORE HORRID MOCKERY is that which elicits the satire--the charade pretending to be pure religion undefiled that is actually hollow or corrupt to the core. Why is THAT not railed at MORE than the satire highlighting it?
Because I do not agree that it is hollow or corrupt to the core. Becuase I knwo that some Protestants will stop at nothing, no lie is too extreme, to attack Cahtolicisim, so I don't evben know if this account is true. Because what is more grotesque is the lie-tolerating, incest-committing, agreement-breaking, utterly devoted to their own will and completely shut to the possibility that those with whom they disagree may have something they need congregation of self-described spirit led people who claim to be obedient to the Leading of the Spirit but in fact do only what they feel like when they feel like it.
So, LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT--you do NOT believe that the syncritistic version of Romanism displayed in the article is rotten to the core; hollow or corrupt?
Methinks you have some very strange definitions of such, if so.
I've already noted that I deplore any believer and especially PentChar's doing such cruddy junky things as you described. I dare say you have ran into RC's who've done such, too. Have you felt similarly toward them?
How does that feel? Feel like conversing much? Wanna have a dialogue after that?
Sure I do--as my whole life has demonstrated. People are incredibly precious. I can learn something from almost anyone.
Despite your account, what the "magicsterical" and the big, colored letters suggest to me is a fear that the truth clearly and dispassionately articulated is too weak to fight for itself and an idea, strangely similar to the one shown by these pseudo-Catholic barbarians (if such indeed they be) in Chiapas that the Lord of Love really approves of hatred as long as it's committed in His Name.
Trying to mind-read hatred into me is just inaccurate. I do not feel it for any RC brother or sister. I just don't. It is also slightly equal to what you are railing at us for doing when we observe behavior in actions and words compared to different behaviors in actions and words and label "A" behavioral set more idolatrous than "B" behavioral set.
I understand that strong, fierce, satirical wording comes across as hatred to you. But that's not at all my heart--except towards satan and his stooges and towards specific evil actions. I tend to be intense and fierce across the board in my life, to some degree. It's my wiring. It's my genetics and my conditioning. Not likely to melt away this side of the 2nd coming.
But, I have, by the Lord's Grace and Spirit, been helped to moderate it and mellow it A LOT. The Quix you see now is VERY MELLOW compared to the one 30 years ago. But some things are still worthy a loud siren warning of danger. And I'm not THAT afraid to sound it.
Did The Lord Jesus hate the money changers when He drove them out of the Temple? I doubt it. But He sure hated what they did and represented.
If purposefully painful and clearly contemptuous modes of expression are okay for one side, because the evil that side sees is just SO evil that only mockery and contempt are adequate in responding to it, well, that's really not far from the Islamic approach, is it? "We're so right, and you're so horribly wrong, that there is no room or need for courtesy or equity."
That's not my feeling at all.
That's not my heart at all.
That's not my attitude at all.
That's not my thoughts at all.
I just know that some modes of calmer, more polite and sugar sweet expression do not scratch the surface. I know that the satire etc. that seems to sometimes flow out HAS BEEN USED FOR DECADES TO GOOD PURPOSE BY HOLY SPIRIT over long periods of time. I have learned to quit questioning and balking at it so much.
It's really NOT my favorite form of recreation to have folks be hurt, flinch, recoil, run screaming into the night or attack back with claws and fangs bared. I've just learned that such satire has a place in my quiver of tools and on occasion issues and priorities call for it. I have had to trust the results to God. I've never enjoyed the misunderstanding or rejection that can so easily come from it.
I'm much more of a teddy bear hugger sort. Some of the folks who know me face to face and then are shown some of such writing are shocked to see such associated with me at all. Usually [not always] such things come out face to face only in group process groups or counseling or sometimes in my classes. In such contexts, the results have been persistently positive, redemptive and productive. No doubt my face to face personna helps as well as my eye contact and the obvious spirit and motive I do such in; face to face.
However, I've discovered over quite a number of years on the net--since 1981ish--that discerning folks do pickukp on my redemptive motives sooner or later even through such a truncated communications mode as this.
If that is really your view, then all that's left is to come to blows. Is that how you see it going? You certainly will not persuade me by insulting and hurting me and slandering the Church I have come to love.
I think many RC's need thicker skin. The Calvinists and I have railed at each other very fiercely for years and I consider many of them some of my dearest brothers and sisters hereon.
If it was a PentChar group in Mexico and you had hit me upside the head with such verbal 2 X 4's I'd have been hurt to a degree. But I hope I'd just as quickly go--WELL, DOH, there must be a reason for the 2 X 4's. Maybe I'd better check and see what my blind spots are about this situation. And, I've DONE SUCH [seen a hard to see correction] OFTEN ENOUGH, I have no doubt that I'd amazingly quickly turn around and say--goodness--you have some good points--those are awful representatives of PentecostalCharismatic Christianity and ought to be thoroughly disciplined ASAP.
The FACT that RC's have not done so in anything other than a defensive rationalization sort of slight and oblique way is very telling. It's said that pigs squeal the loudest when they are stuck the truest.
I see, quite seriously albeit unscientifically, an approach to Christ in the charismatic movement that shields self-will and provides a cover for madness. I have seen it, so your data will not persuade me that it doesn't happen. Especially when the eagerness for resolution and the lust to have the right answer (and to be seen to have it) leads to such extreme argument.
I've agreed that such happens. I've agreed--initiated, volunteered comments many times that all congregations have the same problems with idolatry in different forms that RC's do. I've said such is deplorable regardless of whatever group it's in. Such statements on my part seem to not scratch the surface nor ammount to diddly squat with ya'll. And you wonder why I use such vivid emphases! LOL.
You see in my Church a structure (about which I think you may know less than you think you know) which you think leads to a kind of superficial Christianity or, what's worse, a dreadful and sometimes violent perversion of the Gospel of Love.
I don't quite understand the mangled sentence above. I assume I know less of your structure than you do. I assume I know more than you think I know. I have OBSERVED many who initially claimed to be faithful RC's to have had a VERY SUPERFICIAL spirituality etc. etc. and when finally pinned down to the facts, they agreed. So, my OBSERVATIONS AND the RC's SELF-=REPORTS AGREED. I think given that, I won't allow those facts to be flushed by distant opinions. Thankfully, I have known other RC's such as the Mary Knoll Sister I served with in China--to be wonderful Christians. Though, interestingly, she thought that good Buddhists would get into Heaven apart from Christ.
You excuse the charismatic movement of those flaws you see in it, while you characterize my Church as "corrupt to the core".
I think you're doing some mind-reading again here. I have never excused the hideocies of the Charismatic movement as inconsequential etc. I'VE ACTUALLY OWNED THEM UP FRONT FIRST, IIRC.
Do I think the whole RC edifice is corrupt to the core? Too many variables, aspects etc. I don't know. I ASSERTED IN THIS THREAD . . . that the hideous version, expression of the RC edifice in Mexico responsible for the atrocities above was/is rotten to the core. So, are you now disagreeing and whitewashing such yet again?
I believe that, just as Peter, even when He was not betraying Jesus, so often got a hold of the wrong end of the stick, so also the Catholic Church is conspicuously stupid, cumbersome, awkward, and sometimes vicious. And just as Peter turns out to take a leadership role (if not THE leadership role) after Pentecost, displaying by his obvious inadequacies the power of the Spirit to work with, well, clay of less than the highest quality, so also the Church continues to amaze those who listen to her with the wonder of her message despite the gross failings of those entrusted to spread it. IN other words, sometimes the leaders are corrupt very nearly to the core, but God is stronger and chooses the weak ....
There is plenty of truth to that IN ALL CONGREGATIONS/DENOMINATIONS.
One problem is there is a huge number of people who have already made up their minds that the Church is irredeemably terrible. And , again like the dwarves in "The Last Battle", they are surrounded with a feast but refuse to see it. And further there is a kind of restricted vision of the ways of God with a soul and an impatience that the wayward are not tamed with the snap of a finger.
Yes, immpatience is a problem in all groups and seemingly almost all human lives. However, MD, many CENTURIES is more than long enough to overcome MUCH MORE THAN HAS BEEN DONE, the hideocies in Central and South America fostered, aided, abetted and at least neglected by the RC edifice. I can't see any rationalization justifying THAT.
Today at Mass I wished you had been there to hear the sermon. I am confident that you would have eagerly given an Amen to it. But since we do not claim to be a society of the elect, but a hospital for sinners, I am not scandalized, as I expect you would be, by the probably huge number of people who probably didn't "get it". I'm patient. I know that most of us will be "bad Christians" before we are "Good Christians" in any meaningful sense. I'm okay with a little girl telling me God is in her chest. That's not strictly speaking right and it could lead to a kind of pantheism or gnosticism. But it's not strictly speaking wrong either and it could be a good foundaton for the ideas of the presence of GOd, of His fathfulness, of His availability to those who call upon Him in need. So I don't lift my theological hems away from such.
I have no trouble agreeing with your stance and attitude on that score at all. It matches much my own, increasingly, as I've aged.
I told my story of the lady to suggest that while we may not see the process of conversion until it reaches a crisis stage, it would be arrogant and stupid to assume that because we saw nothing therefore nothing was happening -- or because all we saw was rote droning of Rosaries and Novenas that that was all that God was doing there in her. I am open to God doing things in the hearts of others that I do not see. I am open to God's fight for a soul seeming to be lost in the ebb and flow of battle, and I don't count the battlee lost just because it isn't over yet. I keep thinking of Paul whose early life as a zealous Pharisee gave him what he needed to be, well, Paul, once God finally brought His work to the stage where Paul had to admit He was vanquished. I do NOT see Paul's pre-Damascus life as wasted, I see it as redeemed and made integral to his Post-Damascus life.
I have no trouble agreeing with, resonating with that paragraph's truths, at all. Well put. Beautiful. Important.
I fear I am wasting my time. Those who already know cannot learn. "Since you say you see ... ." Some have so much invested in our being corrupt to the core that if one were to rise from the dead they would not believe.
Probably. But you err seriously to assume I'm one of such. The RC edifice is too huge and complex to make a general rule like that, imho. But I tend to think that all bureaucratic human organizations have more than a little corrupt and usually at the core. LOL.
It is remarkable to me. In the charismatic movement, what I have SEEN is the religion of self, of rationalization, of displacement of responsibility, of flight from insight, of calling a whim a leading of the Spirit and of following it to the brink of madness and perdition - and once right over the edge. The number of people in the psych ward at Mass General Hospital who claimed to be spirit led was impressive! I have done no scientific study. I did came to pentecostalism with hope and yearning rather than a pre-judgement, and this is what I saw. Yet I still acknowledge that the Spirit moves in some lives through such means and channels -- despite the evidence which could be construed to the contrary.
But the same could be said from MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATIONS REGARDING RC's and mental problems. The flavors are slightly different. It's usually the sternness, narrowness, etc. in some areas of the RC edifice, which has ended up driving a lot around the bend. And, I found plenty in such hospitals mangled by such--often in RC schools--usually by "Sister so and so" or "Father so and so" who had clearly been horribly abusive to the individuals for years with no respite and no support from the parents.
But I've never blackwashed the whole RC edifice because of that even though in my counseling and network experiences and observations, the numbers of individuals was disturbingly significant.
BTW, I have OBSERVED plenty of DISPLACEMENT OF RESPONSIBILITY in the RC edifice. It's a paradox. Some seem overburdened with trying to jump through all the hoops and do all the rituals precisely right 24/7. And others, give a very shallow lick and a promise at the rituals and then sin like demons the rest of the week--sounding all the world that they are fully confident that they are saved and ready for Heaven because they did the rituals--usually in record time while thinking of how to cheat a fellow RC more cleverly in the next business deal.
BTW, I do not think that dialogue is wasted. I don't think that effort at increasing understanding is wasted. You seem to be quite patient with folks being brought more fully into the image of Jesus by Holy Spirit . . . but to not be willing to extend such ?extreme? patience in this sort of dialogue. Sad, that.
But I have never heard the love of God and His rich promises proclaimed and explicated anywhere as I have among Catholics. I see what I see, you see what YOU see. I am open to what you see, you are not open to what I see. You KNOW we're corrupt to the core. I know no such thing.
That's not true, MD. I have demonstrated repeatedly that of the many hereon who have strong feelings about RC's, I have persistently demonstrated SOME SIGNIFICANT willingness to see, hear and even agree with many statements and aspects of RC spiritual perspectives and experiences. THAT SUCH IS SO QUICKLY FORGOTTEN, IGNORED AND FLUSHED is disappointing, if not hurtful. Some examples of such are above, in this post. We shall see if they are flushed, minimized, and ignored yet again.
I like it here better. Over there you all seem to think the way to change minds is to mock and insult and blame. But let US mock, and then look out: We're an outrage.
Of course you like it better there or you'd be elsewhere! Likewise here!
Wellllll, satire is a tool often used in Scripture. And, in my experience MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES, it has brought some EVENTUAL fruitfulness when nothing else seemed to. I guess God will have to be my judge on that score. It's not personal. I feel absolutely no hate toward any RC on FR or any other RC that I'm remotely consciously aware of. Nor do any who know me face to face detect such in me. I relate quite warmly with several RC's on the net and face to face.
Typically, in counseling, I loved RC clients because they usually WANTED TO BE BETTER AND would do what you asked of them and make rapid progress. I always greatly appreciated that.
ACTUALLY, MD, RC'S MOCKED, RAILED, ASSAULTED, BAITED etc. me and my perspective first, foremost and most repeatedly. And, I have never observed wimpy or even assertively gentle responses to scratch the surface of such attitudes. Satire AT LEAST gets their attention that maybe the game has been altered and they will no longer be allowed to fling assaults and off the wall statements without forceful responses.
Even as you disparage us you all expect more of Catholics than you do of yourselves! And, with Petrine lapses and betrayals some of us will try to live up to your expectations.
No. Mind-reading inaccuracy again. I'm probably much harder on myself. I'm actually shocked at many of your responses. Once I got to know you better, I'd have never guessed some such attitudes would come from you.
I really have been characterized by those closest to me as an unreasonably optimistic person in terms of other people responding better in life situations than was likely.
Hereon, I know there are some who are . . . TRUE BELIEVERS in the worst sense of Eric Hoffer's meaning--in more than the RC congregations, BTW.
Actually, the literature is quite clear about such folks. They are NOT authentic believers in the Biblical sense. They DO tend to put on their religion like a coat etc. Perhaps it is some such that Christ shall say He never knew even though they claim to have cast out demons in HIs name.
Research has demonstrated that many such folks are SOME of the loudest, shrillest, most obsessive and fiercest sounding proponents of their particular group's dogma of any around. One term for them is INDISCRIMMINANTLY PRO-RELIGIOUS. Another is EXTRINSIC RELIGIONISTS. Those groups are not 100% identical in the literature but nearly so on most dimensions.
I don't mind having patience even with such folks. However, I decline, much of the time, from avoiding using some of their outrageous statements, attitudes and contentions as foils for delcarations about what I believe in contrast.
I feel absolutely no compunctions about such. If they are going to be so outrageous in such pronouncements, then it really is a kindness to highlight such; illustrate the mockery such is to the authentic Gospel etc. It is certainly at least a service to the lurkers--but also to the TRUE BELIEVERS. However, I have no delusions that such TRUE BELIEVERS will learn much in the process. It happens on occasion but not often.
When I have seen such TRUE BELIEVERS learn something--it has virtually always been because God directly or through others has hit them upside the head with a big enough board that they suddenly woke up as out of a deep sleep.
I still love you dearly MD regardless of what you think of my caring. I still care a lot for ALL the RC's hereon and elsewhere in my life. It grieves me to be at odds with anyone over anything. But some issues are very important. I doubt I'll quit ringing a warning bell about them.
But I hope you have been better able to read my heart in the above.
LUB,
There is no contradiction in Scripture concerning the practice of Communion. Any contradiction in practice is man made. I know that.
"The Prots (among whom I think Luther would be surprised to find you do not reckon him)..."
Makes little difference what I reckon him. Makes much difference what Luther reckoned himself. Do you have any information that Luther reckoned himself anything but Catholic?
The Prots (among whom I think Luther would be surprised to find you do not reckon him) are enjoying an ecstasy of moral superiority. Evidently self-esteem is preferable to Truth or to humility in the contemplation of one's own ignorance.
There are 750 million, more or less, "Prots" (is this a deliberate insult?) in the world. May I assume you are painting the entire group with your broad brush.
Do the few downright nasty Catholics who have responded on this thread represent Catholicism?
I thought better of you?
AWESOME!
Do, please, tell us what gratuitously giving offense reveals about the person who does so? Or is it that the victim alone is worthy of blame, of your spiritual assessment, while the giver of offense needs no assessment and merits no blame?
Please note: I did not say I was offended. I said I was hurt. I said the remark was offensive. I think the distinction is important.
But in any case, for you being offended is an offense, while giving unrighteous offense isn't worthy of comment. That "reveals volumes of the writer's perspective", specifically it reveals that you think that he who suffers injustice is more to blame than he who commits it.
I'm glad there is nothing offensive in my remarks.
-- Shakes head --
This is STILL VERY GROSSLY INACCURATE, MD.
Anything that BIBLICALLY DEEPENS ANYONE'S WALK WITH JESUS I SEEK TO APPLAUD. Even some things which I'd shake my head in extreme skepticism over.
The FACT remains, that in my experience and here on this forum, RC's have the hardest time seeing their own idolatries of any group, denomination of Christian's I've ever interacted with. Most Proties, SOONER OR LATER--if they'd dialogue any length at all, would admit such. Buit RC's are a fierce other story.
It is not remotely plausible, given the rituals, !!!!TRADITIONS!!!!, factors involved whether they be images or the hoopla built up around the images and constructs--it's just not PLAUSIBLE, NOT REMOTELY PLAUSIBLE, that all the proties have problems with idolatry and RC's have none. That's one of the silliest notions I can think of. Yet you write as though that's the Gospel truth.
Not for me, it isn't.
That's just NOT TRUE, MD.
I've owned PentChar excesses and off the wall stuff from the beginning of my times on FR and in countless threads. I've owned my own stuff similarly. Calvinists have also seen me own stuff in many of our brick bat exchanges.
Even in my fierce defenses of Rick Warren, I've railed at him about the CFR junk.
I persistently tell it as I see it and let the chips fall where they may regardless of who's ox is gored. Any assertion otherwise is just askew of the facts.
MD, that's not up to your standards, I don't think. That's an absurd statement. My assessing his character via his eyes says NOTHING about the identity of the group that attacked him. It merely asserted that he did not come across TO ME, as a flakey, irrational person. That's all that said. It supported the idea that his part of the narrative was likely honorable and true.
It just so happens, that looking at a person's eyes, even in a photograph, has been an amazingly reliable clue-in, for me, about their personalities and often their strengths and weaknesses. I assume that's partly training and experience and partly gifting from Holy Spirit. In any case, it has been used redemptively and productively for The Kingdom for many years. I make no apologies for such comments. If such comments are not useful to you, please ignore them. I certainly never pretended that they were scientific or anything other than my subjective impressions--perhaps occasionally aided by Holy Spirit. But only IF Holy Spirit confirms such to the individuals concerned.
So, no, just because a few condemned this does not excuse the rest of you. You take the wind out of the sails of arguments against Catholicism by admitting when there are rogues abusing the name. By saying things like “the jerks got what they deserved” and attacking the messenger you make the rest of us think that this really is an element of what is acceptably practiced Catholicism. History backs up that assumption as well to the point that in lesser educated countries, the rule of the inquisition has not entirely gone away.
= = =
Excellent points. Thx.
Interesting parable. Doesn’t jive with my observations and experience. IF it truly jives with yours, that’s interesting. Perhaps we are in parallel universes.
INDEED!
EXCELLENT POINTS WORTHY A LOT OF PRAYERFUL PONDERING.
Thanks much, Dear Sister.
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