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To: nanetteclaret; Uncle Chip; Diego1618
“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 44:1-2, c. AD 80

"You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107


One of the problems with using an Apologist site is that you can use unverifiable, or, worse yet, totally fraudulent information.

If you read any of the translations of St. Clements' Letter To The Corinthians you will note it is unsigned and makes no claim whatsoever to "Primacy". The letter in question, even if authentic, proves nothing.

The Ignatius leters are even more problematic with most, if not all, being proven forgeries.

I don't believe it is necessary to critique your response any further. It has already proven to be unreliable.

2,030 posted on 03/20/2007 1:11:02 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Like I said, you don't have a dog in this hunt.


2,039 posted on 03/20/2007 4:44:18 PM PDT by nanetteclaret (?Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there's always laughter and good red wine." Hilaire Belloc)
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To: OLD REGGIE
If you read any of the translations of St. Clements' Letter To The Corinthians you will note it is unsigned and makes no claim whatsoever to "Primacy".

Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, A.D.95: "The high priest has been given his own special services, the priests have been assigned their own place, and the Levites have their special ministrations enjoined on them. The layman is bound by the ordinances of the laity.

Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110, To the Ephesians: "Your REVEREND presbytery is tuned to the Bishop as strings to a lyre...Let us be careful not to resist the Bishop, that through our submission to the Bishop we may belong to God...We should regard the Bishop as the Lord Himself."

To the Magnesians: "I advise you to always act in godly concord with the Bishop, presiding as the counterpart of God, and the presbyters as the counterpart of the council of the Apostles...As the Lord did nothing without the Father, either by Himself or by means of the Apostles, so you must do nothing without the Bishop and the presbyters."

To the Trallians: "...respect the Bishop as the counterpart of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and the college of the Apostles: without those no church is recognized."

To the Smyrneans: "Let no one do anything that pertains to the church apart from the Bishop...it is not permitted to baptize or hold a love-feast independently of the Bishop. But whatever he approves, that is also well pleasing to God."

Tertullian, A.D. 200: "The supreme priest (that is the Bishop) has the right of conferring baptism: after him the presbyters and deacons, but only with the Bishop's authority. Otherwise the laity also have the right...how much more is the discipline of reverence and humility incumbent upon laymen (since it also befits their superiors)...It would be idle for us to suppose that what is forbidden to PRIESTS is allowed to the laity. The distinction between the order of clergy and the people has been established by the authority of the Church."

Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage A.D. 250: "If Christ Jesus our Lord and God is Himself the High Priest of God the Father, and first offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father, and commanded this to be done in remembrance of Himself, then assuredly the priest acts truly in Christ's place when he reproduces what Christ did, and he then offers a true and complete sacrifice to God the Father, if he begins to offer as he sees Christ Himself has offered.

And so we see how, little by little the Early Church Fathers took Christian churches from being a proliferation of little localized extended families, and made them instead into a worldwide hierarchical religious corporation. It is evident too how this first error made it inevitable that more errors would soon follow. This wrong teaching about the very nature of the leadership and government of the church gave Christian leaders, in the form of Priests and Bishops, such authority that whatever else they ended up teaching was accepted virtually automatically as being from the Lord. And this was the Apostasy of the Early Church......and it continues.

You are correct. During Clement's time there was no claim to primacy....but I would say we were getting real close by the time Cyprian came on the scene. By Nicea....it was a slam dunk!

2,040 posted on 03/20/2007 5:31:16 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: OLD REGGIE
The Ignatius leters are even more problematic with most, if not all, being proven forgeries.

Wow! Where can I go to learn more? 30 some years ago at Virginia Theological they weren't saying that and they were pretty much au courant with that kind o' stuff. ou got your favorite site/ source for the, ahem provenance (pass the brie, please) of the Ignatz corpus?

2,082 posted on 03/21/2007 9:09:37 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Tactical shotty, Marlin 1894c, S&W 686P, Sig 226 & 239, Beretta 92fs & 8357, Glock 22, & attitude!)
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