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To: Uncle Chip
How is your communion wafer different than those in Protestant services?

Possible answer: Ours doesn't get the Microsoft warning that we're using pirated software and then refuse to load?

Seriously, we hold that we have a promise from God that if certain conditions are met (like bona fide priest, intention on his part to celebrate the Sacrament as the Church understands it, etc.) then the SUBSTANCE (a term of art) of Christ -- Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity -- is Really present in the Consecrated what-used-to-be bread and wine, but now just looks like bread and wine.

There is a WIDE range of Opinions about the Sacrament: Mine, and the wrong ones, No, wait.

Way over HERE (and hardly anybody thinks this, except for in the case of the occasional miracle) the bread and wine are changed completely in Body and blood, in what they are AND in how they look, taste, etc.. Way over THERE is that the bread and wine suffer no change at all but it's a good thing to think of the last 23 hours of Jesus' life and eating bread and wine in church is a good way to do that.In the middle are "receptionism" -- sometimes called "The real presence of Christ IN THE BELIEVER who partakes (but not the bread and wine) -- virtualism, which is like it's just as good as if Christ were present, e.g.: some graces and consolations are bestowed, but He's not any more present or present any differently because of the Sacrament. And more and more.

The problems, conceptually, are many, like: isn't Jesus here anyway? How does "sacramental presence" differ from any other kind of presence?

My personal take is that He told us to DO it (and didn't say anything about understanding it, luckily in my case) and, bearing in mind the problems with language and the possible absence of a copular verb in Aramaic, and blah blah, it sure SEEMS to us and to the Church from early on, that he said,"THIS is my body. this is ...my blood," And for sure I'm not going to disagree with him.

I would further adduce what I take to be the incredible spiritual benefits I have derived from participation in this wonderful Sacrament, but you'd have to know how much MORE of a jerk I used to be before to believe that.

I hope that's not totally unclear. except for the jerk part.

1,611 posted on 03/10/2007 7:52:32 AM PST by Mad Dawg ("Now we are all Massoud.")
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To: Mad Dawg; Uncle Chip

**The problems, conceptually, are many, like: isn't Jesus here anyway? How does "sacramental presence" differ from any other kind of presence?**

I have felt that personal presence of Christ, been moved to tears in many Masses and to sobs in a couple. I know that isn't verification of the Real Presence, but for me, Christ is there, Body and Blood.


1,634 posted on 03/10/2007 11:30:11 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Mad Dawg; Uncle Chip; Running On Empty; MarkBsnr
** except for in the case of the occasional miracle)**

Just as a point of interest in these Eucharistic miracles; the host and are wine become REAL flesh, REAL blood,

Eucharistic Miracle: Lanciano,Italy-8th Century A.D.

BLOOD TYPE FOUND IN ICONS IS SAME AS IN SHROUD OF TURIN AND 'LANCIANO MIRACLE'

Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano -Verifies Authenticity of the Phenomenon

Eucharistic Miracle - Bolsena-Orvieto, Italy

Vatican display exhibits eucharistic miracles

The Eucharistic Miracles(Catholic Caucus)

1,695 posted on 03/11/2007 3:53:34 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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