Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool
I do not see where you are getting the word "Pagan" in that link provided by NYer on Holy Water. It was in a post, but not in the article.
And this has what to do with the subject of Purgatory?
Yeh, but how does it become "Holy Water"?? Did humans do something to the water to make it "Holy"? What did they do? We all give thanks to God before meals --- does that make the food "holy"?
A priest has received special blessings at his ordination (Sacrament of Holy Orders) as a representative of Christ to bless the water.
(I'm sure you already knew that -- and are just choosing to present the other side -- flase though it might be.
Regrettably, we also see pagan practices carried down through the millennia among Christians - whether in the use of holy water or in celebration of certain holidays (which always results in heated debate here on the forum, btw.) As with the Romans, Christians look at a pagan symbol and superimpose a Christian meaning to it, e.g. Easter.
Knowing how far to go in relating to a pagan culture requires profound Spiritual discernment – which, IMHO, is mostly lacking for so many lean to their own understanding instead of God. Indeed, the model for relating to pagan cultures would be Paul at Athens – where he only went as far as the Holy Spirit lead him to go, using their own word images (philosophy, etc.) to reveal Spiritual Truth to them so that those who belong to Jesus would hear Him:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter]. So Paul departed from among them.
Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which [was] Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them. - Acts 17:16-34
Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. - Hebrews 9:16-22
And thou shalt set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and shalt put water therein. And thou shalt set up the court round about, and hang up the hanging at the court gate. And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that [is] therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.
And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy. And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it.
And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. Exd 40:7-12
And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that [was] therein, and sanctified them. And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them. And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him. – Lev 8:10-12
And thou shalt take of the blood that [is] upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle [it] upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. – Exodus 29:21
The first Biblical instance of Anointing as a sign of consecration —the pouring of oil by Jacob upon the stone of Beth-el - offered a problem to later speculative rabbis as to the source whence Jacob obtained the oil in that lonely spot. The reply was made by them that it must have "streamed down from heaven in quantity just sufficient for the purpose" (Gen. R. lxix., Pirḳe R. El. xxxv.). The oil of holy ointment prepared by Moses in the wilderness (Ex. xxx. 23 et seq.) had many miraculous qualities: it was never absorbed by the many spices mixed therewith; its twelve logs (1.68 gallons) were sufficient for the anointment of all the kings and high priests of Israelitish history, and will be in use in the Messianic time to come. During the reign of Josiah this oil was hidden away simultaneously with the holy ark, to reappear in the Messianic time (Hor. 11b et seq.; Sifra, Milluim, 1).
For Ritual Purposes.
Water was of great importance in purification, being used in cleansing the leper, in sickness, in washing utensils, and in the cleansing of one who had been defiled by touching an unclean body (Lev. xv. 16-22, 27). The liability of plants and fruits to defilement was increased by contact with water (Lev. xi. 38), a contingency which formed a topic of much discussion in the Talmudic period, and became the subject of the treatise Makshirin.
Libations.
The offering of water as a libation was an ancient institution, and even before the kingdom was established the Israelitish tribes, after having suffered repeated defeats at the hands of the Philistines, gathered together at Mizpeh at the command of the prophet Samuel, and poured water on the ground before Yhwh (I Sam. vii. 5-6). An apparent analogue to this is found in the story that at the great feast of Baal the prophet Elijah poured water in the trench which surrounded the altar (I Kings xviii. 35), possibly to enhance the miracle. The libation at the Feast of Tabernacles, when the high priest sprinkled water upon the altar as a sacrifice, was a later development of the ancient offering; it was a feature of the ritual until the destruction of the Second Temple, and the disregard of it by Alexander Jannus entailed terrible consequences (comp. Suk. 48b).
The word "water" was often used by the Jews symbolically, especially in expressing grief, i.e., tears (Jer. ix. 1, 18; Ps. cxix. 136). A misfortune of great magnitude, the full extent of which it seemed impossible to fathom, was likened to water (Lam. iii. 54; Ps. lxix. 2, cxxiv. 4-5), while the constant flow and unrest of water were symbolic of numerous descendants (Num. xxiv. 7). The forgiveness of sins and their complete remission were typified by sprinkling with clean water (Ezek. xxxvi. 25); and in Jer. ii. 13 God is compared to a fountain of living waters. It was customary in the Talmudic period, moreover, to use "water" symbolically for the divine teachings (see Mek., Beshallaḥ, Wayassa', 1); so that in several passages the term "water" is used without any amplification whatever (comp. Ḥag. 3a; B. M. 84b; Hor. 14a; Ab. i. 2).
"Water of Bitterness."
Water prepared with the ashes of the Red Heifer was especially important, since, even though unclean, it had the power of cleansing men and things infected with defilement. Still more important, however, was the "water of bitterness," the so-called "me ha-marim ha-me'arerim," which was prepared in the following manner: Into an earthen vessel the priest poured water which had stood in the Temple, and with this water he mixed dust taken from the Temple floor. If a woman was suspected of unfaithfulness toward her husband, the priest pronounced certain maledictions, which he afterward wrote on a little scroll. This was then dissolved in the water, which the accused woman was obliged to drink (Num. v. 17-24; see also the article Soṭah).
The link you provided at Post #2188 among other things in it, says this:
"Water is the natural element for cleansing, and hence its use was common in almost every ancient faith, to denote interior purification. Among the Greeks and Romans the sprinkling of water, or "lustration," was an important feature of religious ceremonies. Cities were purified by its use, in solemn processions. Fields were prepared for planting by being blessed with water. Armies setting out for war were put under the protection of the gods by being sprinkled in a similar manner. Among the Egyptians the use of holy water was even more common, the priests being required to bathe in it twice every day and twice every night, that they might thereby be sanctified for their religious duties. The Brahmins and others of the far Orient, and even the Indians of our own continent, have always attached great importance to ceremonial purification by means of water."
So now we descend to the level of "Catholic writers" unnamed and unsourced referring to something that opposes what the Catechism says. Nice argument. Unless you can come up something with a little more substance, direct your anger elsewhere.
I trust that, in spite of your efforts, we can enlighten you. I don't know where Purgatory is. We can speculate, but we don't know. All we know is that it exists.
Do you really not read posts and links? Automatic gainsaying doth not a good discussion make.
More ancient religions than Christianity say prayers. Does that mean when Christians pray, they follow pagan practice? More ancient religions than Christianity kneel in worship. Do you kneel in worship?
Thanks very much for the water post. Informative.
Just because pagans did something, doesn't mean that similar practice should not have been incorporated into our practice. For instance, giving thanks for food before eating.
Water is so all-important to sustain life. It is no coincidence that some pagans would have incorporated it into their practices as well.
I don't get hung up on things like that - earlier in this thread, there was a big deal made about the upside down cross and calling the Pope Satanist, when it turns out that the upside down cross was Petrine. The focus, though, needs to be on God and on what He wants, rather than what our whims would dictate to us.
All that matters to me is God.
So if Paul by appropriating the concept of an "unknown God" - or the Catholic church by appropriating the concept of holy water - are doing what God wants, then it is a good thing.
If however someone appropriates a pagan symbol of his own will --- he is on very, very shaky ground and it cannot end well. I would venture to say especially so if he teaches others to do the same thing.
Very shaky. I agree wholeheartedly.
That's what the Catholic Magisterium is for - to decide as a God-fearing group inspired by the Holy Spirit, rather than an individual who would be more inclined to follow a whim.
you're welcome!
Personally, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men - whether by the Pope, Calvin, Arminius, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith and so on. That is the leading I have in the indwelling Spirit.
But God did not make us to be "cookie cutter" Christians. Peter wasn't like John who wasn't like Paul who wasn't like Thomas. And the foundation of the New Jerusalem consists of twelve very different gemstones, symbolizing both the differences and acceptability among the apostles.
My function in Christ's body is probably different from yous. So it's plenty ok with me that you are Catholic and I am not.
May God bless you always, dear MarkBsnr!
No one is "bashing" anyone on this thread. We're all here to learn.
Do you think the counter-Reformation ended?
"Rome has not essentially changed. Rome declared that what it said at the time of the Reformation was infallible and could not change. Declared it to be irreformible truth. Rome has not changed and precious truths of God's word are still worth upholding even at the cost of unity even at the cost of being considered "troublemakers" in the religious world. We need to guard the antithesis against the destructive error of Rome." Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen -- From a tape, THE REFORMATION, October 28, 1990.""The Reformation is dying daily in our day when the Ecumenical Movement, and other forces like unto it, wish to soften the antithesis with Rome, today. I want to assure you that it's not my pugnacious debating nature that makes me say we must exalt that antithesis and guard it. It's my love for the Lord Jesus Christ and the purity of His word.
Well, in your search for it, you can eliminate one place for sure. It's not in Scripture.
Praying is a Judeo-Christian practice. Sprinkling with Holy Water is not of Judeo-Christian origin. It originates in pagan religious practice as the link says. Don't you read the links before answering???
I'm reading an interesting book "The History of Christianity", by Paul Johnson. He makes an interesting observation, that during the dark ages cathedrals were built by the wealthy from tax collection and were used for prayers to have the rich pardoned from purgatory. Apparently the practice became so corrupt, churches built on the backs of the poor for the benefit of the rich, that the laity were well disposed towards reform.
I am assuming that your church believes this supernatural power is a product of your theory of apostolic succession. If your theory of apostolic succession was shown to be incorrect would you then question all the other supernatural powers your priests are supposed to have?
Our differences are founded in this very thought. Protestants believe the Holy Spirit speaks directly to individual believers through Scripture and prayer. To read the Bible is to know this for a fact.
We're instructed to worship God as a congregation of believers, to study Scripture together and rightly divide the word of God, but we are never to doubt the Holy Spirit is leading our study.
It's true that some men think they are being led when they are not. But that does not negate the absolute fact that some men, by the grace and will of God alone, are being led in righteousness to all truth.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." -- Romans 8:14-17"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Our job is to read the Scriptures and...
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." -- 2 Timothy 2:15
And in doing so, we will "prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2).
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