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To: Uncle Chip; Salvation
"Holy water" is not Scriptural and is not based on the Talmud or on Jewish tradition AFAIK. And certainly, holy water is rooted in pagan cultures. It was not uncommon in the Roman empire to incorporate practices as it expanded its territory.

Regrettably, we also see pagan practices carried down through the millennia among Christians - whether in the use of holy water or in celebration of certain holidays (which always results in heated debate here on the forum, btw.) As with the Romans, Christians look at a pagan symbol and superimpose a Christian meaning to it, e.g. Easter.

Knowing how far to go in relating to a pagan culture requires profound Spiritual discernment – which, IMHO, is mostly lacking for so many lean to their own understanding instead of God. Indeed, the model for relating to pagan cultures would be Paul at Athens – where he only went as far as the Holy Spirit lead him to go, using their own word images (philosophy, etc.) to reveal Spiritual Truth to them so that those who belong to Jesus would hear Him:

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter]. So Paul departed from among them.

Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which [was] Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them. - Acts 17:16-34

The practice of sprinkling oneself with water out of a basin upon entering a Catholic place of worship may be rooted in Jewish doctrine and tradition (see below, emphasis mine). However - a big however - testaments are sealed in blood and objects and persons are consecrated to God with anointing oil.

For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. - Hebrews 9:16-22

And thou shalt set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and shalt put water therein. And thou shalt set up the court round about, and hang up the hanging at the court gate. And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that [is] therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.

And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy. And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it.

And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. Exd 40:7-12

And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that [was] therein, and sanctified them. And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them. And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him. – Lev 8:10-12

And thou shalt take of the blood that [is] upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle [it] upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. – Exodus 29:21

Jewish traditions:

Jewish Encyclopedia - Anointing

The first Biblical instance of Anointing as a sign of consecration —the pouring of oil by Jacob upon the stone of Beth-el - offered a problem to later speculative rabbis as to the source whence Jacob obtained the oil in that lonely spot. The reply was made by them that it must have "streamed down from heaven in quantity just sufficient for the purpose" (Gen. R. lxix., Pirḳe R. El. xxxv.). The oil of holy ointment prepared by Moses in the wilderness (Ex. xxx. 23 et seq.) had many miraculous qualities: it was never absorbed by the many spices mixed therewith; its twelve logs (1.68 gallons) were sufficient for the anointment of all the kings and high priests of Israelitish history, and will be in use in the Messianic time to come. During the reign of Josiah this oil was hidden away simultaneously with the holy ark, to reappear in the Messianic time (Hor. 11b et seq.; Sifra, Milluim, 1).

Jewish Encylopedia – Water

For Ritual Purposes.

Water was of great importance in purification, being used in cleansing the leper, in sickness, in washing utensils, and in the cleansing of one who had been defiled by touching an unclean body (Lev. xv. 16-22, 27). The liability of plants and fruits to defilement was increased by contact with water (Lev. xi. 38), a contingency which formed a topic of much discussion in the Talmudic period, and became the subject of the treatise Makshirin.

Libations.

The offering of water as a libation was an ancient institution, and even before the kingdom was established the Israelitish tribes, after having suffered repeated defeats at the hands of the Philistines, gathered together at Mizpeh at the command of the prophet Samuel, and poured water on the ground before Yhwh (I Sam. vii. 5-6). An apparent analogue to this is found in the story that at the great feast of Baal the prophet Elijah poured water in the trench which surrounded the altar (I Kings xviii. 35), possibly to enhance the miracle. The libation at the Feast of Tabernacles, when the high priest sprinkled water upon the altar as a sacrifice, was a later development of the ancient offering; it was a feature of the ritual until the destruction of the Second Temple, and the disregard of it by Alexander Jannus entailed terrible consequences (comp. Suk. 48b).

The word "water" was often used by the Jews symbolically, especially in expressing grief, i.e., tears (Jer. ix. 1, 18; Ps. cxix. 136). A misfortune of great magnitude, the full extent of which it seemed impossible to fathom, was likened to water (Lam. iii. 54; Ps. lxix. 2, cxxiv. 4-5), while the constant flow and unrest of water were symbolic of numerous descendants (Num. xxiv. 7). The forgiveness of sins and their complete remission were typified by sprinkling with clean water (Ezek. xxxvi. 25); and in Jer. ii. 13 God is compared to a fountain of living waters. It was customary in the Talmudic period, moreover, to use "water" symbolically for the divine teachings (see Mek., Beshallaḥ, Wayassa', 1); so that in several passages the term "water" is used without any amplification whatever (comp. Ḥag. 3a; B. M. 84b; Hor. 14a; Ab. i. 2).

"Water of Bitterness."

Water prepared with the ashes of the Red Heifer was especially important, since, even though unclean, it had the power of cleansing men and things infected with defilement. Still more important, however, was the "water of bitterness," the so-called "me ha-marim ha-me'arerim," which was prepared in the following manner: Into an earthen vessel the priest poured water which had stood in the Temple, and with this water he mixed dust taken from the Temple floor. If a woman was suspected of unfaithfulness toward her husband, the priest pronounced certain maledictions, which he afterward wrote on a little scroll. This was then dissolved in the water, which the accused woman was obliged to drink (Num. v. 17-24; see also the article Soṭah).

Food for the discussion.

2,265 posted on 03/28/2007 8:29:26 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Thanks very much for the water post. Informative.

Just because pagans did something, doesn't mean that similar practice should not have been incorporated into our practice. For instance, giving thanks for food before eating.

Water is so all-important to sustain life. It is no coincidence that some pagans would have incorporated it into their practices as well.

I don't get hung up on things like that - earlier in this thread, there was a big deal made about the upside down cross and calling the Pope Satanist, when it turns out that the upside down cross was Petrine. The focus, though, needs to be on God and on what He wants, rather than what our whims would dictate to us.


2,270 posted on 03/28/2007 10:12:46 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (When you believe in nothing, then everything is acceptable.)
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