Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool
LOL!!
There is nothing wrong with good works. People should do them but not to gain salvation. When you are free from judgement, you are free to focus on the Lord; not on being good enough. The Holy Spirt is the motivator. The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son. That means they all live within you and how can you live a sinful life with their Spirit within you?
They are just sooooo cute!!! We used to have Nubians when I lived at home. I praise God for them because they ate all the poison ivy surrounding the house, and I am highly allergic to it (it only has to be on the wind and I get it!)
My in-laws keep talking about getting some goats...my kids would love it :)
This is from "Young's Literal Translation" of the scriptures which I use quite often as it....just literally translates....with no thought to style, rhythm or beauty.
[Luke 1:48] Because He looked on the lowliness of His maid-servant, For, lo, henceforth call me happy shall all the generations.
Please exercise patience and remember that, at least for me, repetition is not persuasive. I KNOW that you think that the RCC church is a human institution with human traditions. I disagree. Your saying it over and over again will not change my mind.
As to the question of debt and stain: I distinguished between the two. Consequently a whole artillery barrage of citations about debt being cancelled will not do to address the question of stain (and chain but that's for later) unless you show me there is no distinction, which you have not yet done.
But it sounds like you do not distinguish between the two. I agree the debt is paid. The relationship is restored. If it were not, in our scheme, our "subject" would be in hell, not Purgatory.
Here's the problem I'd like you -- NOT to agree (not yet, anyway) with -- but to give some sign of understanding what I'm saying.
So John Doe apologizes to God for his sins and his estrangement from God. He accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. The relationship is restored. This is always a tear-bringing miracle.
The next morning he trips over the cat on his way out the door and in his anger lets fly a mighty blasphemous oath and drop kicks the cat into next week. (This is NOT part of my life experience -- I don't kick that well.)
What do you say of this? Was his conversion phony? I would say not necessarily. Is his sin forgiven? I would say, Yes - at least in principle. God still loves him, still holds him in His heart, etc. Is it a sin? Fer shur!
What if John Doe is an especially irascible man, (and if he has an especially stupid cat)? This may actually be a habitual occurrence in his life. Is that possible?
Sure, I think the moment when one finally makes one's own personal assent to God is accompanied by some instant changes. And for some people, Sergeant York comes to mind if the stories are true), it seems they are radical life-changing alterations. But for others, the habits of cussing and cat-kicking are so automatic that they hardly know they're doing them. It will take time to become aware and to stop doing those things.
One of the first steps for many smokers or over-eaters is to become aware of when they light up or snack. There was once this hysterically funny (to us, not to the judge) young man in court.He used the f-word the way you or I might say "uh". I'm serious! I was quietly exploding with laughter (hard to do in uniform -- I had to face the wall) but out of the corner of my eye I could see the judge's eyebrows climbing over the top of her head!
This guy had no clue that you don't use that kind of language in front of a lady judge (or anywhere else, come to think of it) and probably even if he HAD a clue, could hardly stop himself. It was so obviously habitual,an unconscious habit.
Now God could save that young man, of course. And God would bear with him as he slowly, slowly turned away from filthy talk. God would help him in all the ways God helps us.
So this guy, on his way downstairs He makes his appeal to Christ. He steps out of the court building and is hit by a bus. Does he join the heavenly chorus, and while they're singing, is his part, "I'm effing talking about AH effing LAY effing LOO effing YAH! Effing A, know whut I mean?"
I would venture to say, probably not.
So how does THAT change happen in him? How does the habit of profanity and filthy talk get shed from Him?
And, skipping about ninety gazillion steps, I'd say that Purgatory is our answer to that question.
Others here use a language of debt. I personally prefer a therapeutic analogy, herewith:
I had a feed mixer. It broke. I had to hand mix about 300 lbs of feed per day for months. I can't reckon how many scoops of grain that involved. Part of the problem was that one medication, a coccidiostat, is so strong that I essentially had to mix about a cup evenly through some 150 gallons of feed. LOTs of scooping.
Because I have not exercised as I ought, the muscles supporting my shoulder were not as they should be, and I damaged my shoulder. I had to go to therapy. The therapy involved infusions of cortisone, exercises, and what I can only call torture. This LOVELY and pleasant young lady would come and, as it seemed, try to rip my arm out of the socket. In all different ways! (I finally realized that while I was being all stoic, she was watching my face, and stopping when I looked like I was in all the agony I could bear. I quit being as stoic.)
So finally, my shoulder was all better.
The analogy is that I had been living a life of sin, and one particular sin repeated finally damaged me so much that I became aware of the agony.
"The decrees of the Lord are just, and righteous altogether." That is, God gives is commands, not because he, as it were, likes green better than purple, but because He loves us, and sin is bad for us. There's not just a debt against him for disobedience, there are the effects in ourselves of our sinfulness, the damage it does to us. The wrath of God is not arbitrary, it's organic, the sin is its own punishment. (This is made very clear in Dante, BTW)
So, when I say to myself, Ow! That is like turning to Jesus. When I go to the Physical Therapy Shoppe that is the healthiest thing I can do when I'm in that state. By analogy I AM Saved. I am saved into the ways of righteousness and healing. But the mode of righteousness and healing at that point is to have medication, exercise, and torture. And now I can enjoy, even after my surgery, doing exercises with dumbbells (no personal remarks please) to stay strong. Just as I am reading my Bible, praying, and, when I can going to Mass and other services with my brethren.
Part of the problem in communication is our fault, in that we use the language of payment and penalty for what I would rather call the "organic" inevitable consequences of sin. So from MY POV it was a blessing that I could go to physical therapy. But, because I "had to" one could describe it as a "penalty" or "price" of my misuse of my body.
Similarly, as I approached this surgery, I knew I would suffer some pain. I wanted God to accept my suffering as an offering. SO I went to confession.
Wow! I saw your hackles rise from here!
See, you think of that as some kind of strange thing, I guess. But for me I got to discuss with a wise, good, and loving friend those things I have done which trouble me in my access to God. (ME, not HIM. God is fine. I tie myself up in knots sometimes though.) I wanted to clear the decks for battle and to make sure I was in good shape for the coming struggle. This wasn't a penalty, not at all. It was a GIFT, and that's how I experienced it. Sure, it had moments where it was like a painfully rough massage, but I left invigorated and strong and ready to cling ever more closely to my loving Lord as we dealt with my silly fears and pains.
Please remember. I am not hoping to persuade you that I am right here. I am trying to convey a concept of purgatory which will help you understand, whether or not you agree, with the distinction between debt and stain, or with how we can think of Purgatory not as a lessening of God's love but as a gift of that love to us.
LOL! This is what my dad was talking about.
Servus Servorum Dei.
Oh, SO I won't be needing the thong then, huh?
[Last year when I did the MS walk I told the deputies that if everyone pledge $25 I'd do it carrying a 35 lbs. pack (which I did.) If everybody pledged $50 I'd do it wearing a thong. If everybody pledged $75 I'd promise NOT to wear a thong. You'd think the $75 pledges would have come rushing in ....]
I love 'em! I just love 'em!
However, I have noticed that there is one very serious fact that practitioners of YOPIOS are generally incapable of grasping:
Though the New Testament was WRITTEN in Greek, the words SPOKEN in the Gospels (and Acts and a few places in the epistles) were in Aramaic. Because Aramaic DOES NOT have certain words that appear in Greek and other words DO NOT literally translate into Greek; and then when some of these Greek words are translated into English there can be other changes. Therefore, there is a tremendous likelihood of misinterpretation which is another reason that Peter's warning was so forceful (2Peter 3:16-17), but unfortunately nearly every practitioner of YOPIOS ignores this warning.
Well, I actually have, over a vacation. It's not a tough read - the book is just narrow, making it appear to be a huge book. It focuses mainly on the creed. And yeah - I've read the whole Baltimore catechism too.
If you're professing a faith, it's good to know what you're professing, I'm sure you would agree.
You posted to me first (#879)! So if you don't want me to answer you, don't post to me, because I will answer.
Sorry I hit a nerve.
That wasn't my intent. Sorry.
I didn't mention Mary - you did. No where did I state that I could look into your heart.
I had to follow this comment all the way back to 738, where you mention who we worship. Since many suggest we worship Mary, I read part of that into your statement (another one of those interpretation thingEys).
He is the Rock. Without Him would you be worshipping Peter?
No - why would I worship a man? I believe that Peter is the Rock, which has been asserted and argued by others. I have no desire to repeat their points, and I'm sure you have read them as well. So, it appears that we must agree to disagree.
*****************
Amen. It took me until my early thirties to understand this interpretation of sin and God's commands. When we speak of "God the Father", I believe this is what it means.
We have disagreements because we INTERPRET what we read in different ways. This happens within the various Prot. denominations as well. So, as I look to others for a deeper understanding of what I read (and not just biblically), I look to the interpretations of a 2000 y.o. Church to assist with my thoughts.
I can't believe that I am the sole authority since I am not infallible. If we're guided by the Holy Spirit, than we cannot all be right. Could this be ego? I don't know.
It borders on condescending when you suggest that we don't read the bible and instead look solely to others for what to believe.
And our doctrine has not changed. If you look at the totality of belief of the denominations in the early 20th century with regard to abortion, birth control, etc. there's a major split. (While some still believe as the Catholic Church does, the numbers are few.)
The Church will not bend to the changing winds of popular thought (although some of the post-VII teachings were incorrectly applied and are starting to change back). If the winds of popular thought don't come straight out of the gates of hell, I don't know what does.
If sola scriptura/YOPIOS worked, there were only be three main Christian divisions, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant/Lutherans. When the Orthodox broke from Rome, they MAINTAINED Church tradition and today the Vatican will acknowledge that there is substantial communion between Catholics and Orthodox. This is because the Orthodox did not view the Great Schism as a reason to abandon or change over a thousand years of Church teaching.
However, when the Protestant Reformation, everything was "on the table" as far as revision goes and it has remained that way ever since. There are thousands of different groups and sub-groups, none of which can agree with each other. The Reformation has, for lack of a better term, been an exercise in anarchy -- because they have no Apostolic authority, they fight among themselves for authority and it has gotten to the point that anyone who wants can become an "ordained" pastor, raise some money, open up his own church and do as he pleases.
You have to know what God's word says before you can discern between someone's opinion and the facts written in His word. When I read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, it tells me what the gospel is. Romans 1:16 tells me that I have salvation if I believe the gospel. When I read Ephesians 2:8, it tells me I am saved through faith and that God gave me salvation as a gift. We can argue and discuss all things about our faith but God's word clearly states that we are saved by faith plus nothing. I don't care what church you attend, if they don't teach salvation by faith only; you are in the wrong one. No one church holds the truth.
And 2 Peter 3:16-17 says very clearly that you are doing so at great peril.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.