Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool
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Is 1:10,16-20 / Mt 23:1-12
Have you ever noticed how much of our supposedly rational decision making is really nothing more than our preferences or prejudices in search of an excuse? We can spin some fancy tales and conjure some eloquent arguments, but in the end most of them amount to very little. And much the same is true of so many of our plans, prayers, and promises. Lots of talk and little more. Worst of all we can get in the habit of believing our own 'press releases', believing all that baloney to be true.
Moving from cheap talk to real deeds is at the heart of what Lent is about. It starts with repenting, that is, re-thinking what's truly important and where we ought to be investing our main energies, if we want to call ourselves followers of Jesus. That kind of re-thinking inevitably calls us to re-forming and re-shaping parts of our lives into a clearer likeness of Jesus. And that in turn requires that we get to know Jesus better — from the inside.
God has given each one of us unique gifts for which there is a specific need in our piece of the world. Get to know Jesus better — on the inside — and he'll show you how to carry your gifts where they're needed. Your deeds will be ever so much better than any words. And your heart will know the delight of being a real follower of Jesus.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html gives 32 Bible verses that tell about purgatory and gives extensive illustration of what the early Church fathers believed.
What part of the whole stain [as you put it] is paid for by Jesus Christ, that you don't understand. You mock His death by suggesting otherwise. I understand you don't realize you mock His death but none the less that is exactly what you are doing. As He said it is finished. There is nothing to be burnt away, it is already washed away by the blood of Christ. My sins are forgiven because I belong to Christ and now I should believe that I have to pay for these forgiven sins. What evil doctrine makes Christ' payment less than it is - full payment.
Not one of those verses refers to purgatory or a process between life here and life in the presence of God for those who belong to Christ. The thief on the cross. Jesus told him you will be with me today in Paradise. Was Jesus going to have to spend some time in this purgatory too. Or was the thief getting special treatment by not having to go to purgatory. NEITHER! The place, process whatever you want to call it does not exist.
How can you not know that Jesus paid the full price of your sins?
I state again the doctrine of purgatory is hated by God, because it is a lie and makes the death of Jesus Christ of no value.
**It leaves unanswered my question as to why He would appear first to Mary Magdalene.**
IMO, the Lord made sure no member of his earthly family, nor one of the 11 disciples, would claim to be first to see him resurrected, which would have been a cause for envy among them. Also, I believe the Lord didn't appear to his earthly mother first in order to keep her from being elevated by people, who would no doubt credit her with resurrecting Him.
Heel spurs instead of toe problems.
Life will take it's toll...
No.
1. Scriptures have already been given that the Lord Jesus had siblings.
2. No as already stated
3. Cannot be as scripture states they are Jesus' brothers.
4. So what? Does not add weight to your theory.
5. Was not accepted before catholic church...350 years. And who was to agrue with RCC, Christians risked their lives to oppose RCC teaching or were already in hiding.
6. No basis for fact...just conjecture because no histroical fact or biblical proof. As already stated Josephus speaks of Jesus siblings = fact.
7. Jesus is royality because he is God. The Son of God. Mary does not give royal status to Jesus, His Father in heaven does.
What a stretch! Jesus did say she was being taken away from her children but that John was to look after her as his own mother and she was to consider John as a son. You are adding what is not stated again.
Are you sure that Paradise and heaven are the same thing?
You write of "paying for" the stain of sin. I'm not sure we are taking about the same thing. Jesus has paid in full the debt of our sin. We deserve death. He took the death we deserve. Nevertheless there are certain disabilities consequent upon vice, just as there are abilities which follow the practice of virtue -- no matter how imperfect our motivation for those practices might be.
While miracles happen, the mere act of handing yourself over to Jesus and accepting Him as your Lord and savior does not automatically and inevitably make you an unselfish person, for example. If you tended, say, to the hysterical, to wanting others to notice and discuss amongst themselves and with you what a fabulous, warm, and fuzzy person you are, it's not a sure thing that that habit will die with our conversion or, we maintain, with your death.
Purgatory, as I see it, is where you work off those habits and develop good habits. You are admitted to Purgatory, the front porch of heaven (for yet another metaphor) through the all sufficient merits of Christ. And, as I said, everyone there rejoices because they are saved already because Jesus has already, as you say, paid the full price of their sins.
Saying that something is proved in Scripture or not is always tricky. I find that if all I have is Scripture I do not necessarily come up with Purgatory as a notion. But WITH the doctrine of Purgatory I find many questions answered and passages of Scripture take on what is to me a fuller meaning.
But to be redundantly clear, there is a difference between removing the stain and paying the price. Consequently we can agree with you that forgiveness is supplied through Christ's work alone. We are not saying much about paying a debt except in a sort of double metaphor.
What we are addressing in the doctrine is the fact that people sin a after they are saved. So while something is washed away, there is still something which seems to need a remedy.
What do you think of the sins someone commits after they are saved? My experience is that my relationship with Jesus and my confidence in His saving love drives me to greater awareness of my sinfulness -- and that enables me to begin to pluck out, always with His help (since the root of the problem is usually not asking for His help) the bad habits I have given myself by frequent indulgence in bad deeds.
And if it doesn't work I'll just be eating up bandwidth here. (cue ominous music.)
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I have met catholics who pray to her. Have you not? Strange it is very common.?? They ask her for all sorts of things, blessings, in catholic churches too...hmmm.??? How can you not aware of this?
I am sorry but I do not have the time to do the research for you. But if you will do some searching you will find catholic churches in South America and elsewhere that teach Mary can forgive sins and they ask her to forgive there sins. I have seen a claim of her having been put on the cross in Jesus' place in some village churches in Mexico and another Central American country [don't remember which country now].
Mary was not conceived free from sin. That would make God a liar. For He states that all have sinned and fallen short of sin. You are letting tradition overrule the Word of God here.
There are many RCC traditions that overrule the word of God. One above. Purgatory. Men of God not being able to marry. The Pope replacing Jesus as head of church....the list is long.
I already belong to Jesus Christ and nothing shall separate me from him. I will never give that up to join some religion.
Man, I warned 'em at post 990 this was going into dreaded territory....
Ask the Spirit for guidance. We have some nice tertiaries around here: the Franciscans, the Carmelites. We just don't have a Dominican Chapter even though the Dominican nuns teach not too far away. I think you ought to give them a chance. And, I think it is God's will if a priest asked you.
His Will be done!
I am impressed you are able to put up with some of these guys.
This thread should be listed under "humor", because I laughed all the way thru it. I can hear the voices of rabid anti-Catholics saying this stuff. I've heard arguments like this over the years from anti-Catholics who cannot hold it back, once they start spewing the anti-Catholic rant, they can't stop. It's pathetic to see them rant, they're like a non-stop tape that keeps looping around. They're consumed with hatred.
(i) A social religion
Almost the first thing we see when we look at a man is that he is not an isolated unit independent of others, but a social being bound to others both by needs that cannot be satisfied and by powers that must remain unused save in relation to other men. It would be strange if God, having made man social, should ignore the fact in His own personal dealings with man. To treat man as an isolated independent unit would be as monstrous in religion as in any other department of human life. It would be to treat man as what he is not. But the one being who is not likely to do that is God, who made man what he is, and made him so because that is what He wanted him to be. A religion which should consist in an individual relation of each person directly to God would be no religion for man. A social being requires a social religion. Within that social religion, the individual will have his own religious needs and experiences, but they will be within and not external to, or a substitute for, his approach to God and God's approach to him in union with other men.
Individualist religious theories there have always been, even among Christians. They have never been able to carry out the full logic of their individualist theory because their nature as human beings stood too solidly in the way. Something in religion they have had to get from other men. So the Bible-Christian despising priesthood and minimizing Church has yet had to fall back upon the Bible; and the Bible, although it is given to us by God, is given through men, the men who under His inspiration wrote it. A religion wherein the soul finds and maintains a relation with God with no dependence upon men is impossible, and what makes it impossible is the nature God gave man. The only question, then, is whether religion shall do its very uttermost to elude the social element in man's nature, accepting only so much as it can by no possibility avoid; or whether it shall wholly accept and glory in the social element as something given by God, something therefore to be used to the uttermost in religion as in the rest of man's life. In giving man the religion of the Kingdom, God showed what His own answer is .
Christ did not leave His followers free at their discretion to form their own groups if it seemed good to them, or to remain isolated if it seemed good to them. He banded them into a flock, a society, a Church. "He gave Himself for us, to ransom us from all our guilt, a people set apart for Himself. What the Jews had been, the Church now is. We remember Moses' words" "This is the blood of the covenant." But now, we have Christ's word: "This is my blood of the new covenant." There is a new covenant and a new people: not just millions of redeemed individuals: a people. The brotherhood of every Christian with Christ involved the brotherhood of every Christian with one another. His normal way of giving them His gifts of truth and life was to be through the society: in other words, the whole Christian life was not to be a solitary relation of each soul to Christ but to each to all in Christ: this is what the Apostle's Creed means by the "Communion of Saints. In solidarity with other men, we fell in Adam and rose again with Christ; in the same solidarity, we live the new life...
Theology and Sanity, Frank J. Sheed, ISBN 0-89870-470-7, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1993, Part III. Dispensing the Gifts. 21. The Kingdom, (i) A social religion, pp. 289-291 296-297.
You can say what you want but biblical proof is the only truth I follow.
Look I have catholic friends including Priests. I have also shared the gospel with catholics that were unsure of salvation and seen them come to Christ. I am Pastor and firmly planted on The Rock, Jesus. I don't want to part of a catholic bash-fest. But it is clear that too many catholics are not saved and it is because of Roman Catholic Church teaching. God's grace [gift of salvation], Jesus finished payment for sin and faith alone in the first two must replace the doctrines of religion the RCC holds or the judgment of God is sure. I have a heart for the lost and that includes lost catholics. You must know that many catholics live lives that prove they do not know and have Christ. That is not a criticism. It is a challenge to do something about it in the RCC. These people will be lost for eternity. For the love of God, help them!
**Spare me!**
LOL!
Come on! Where's your gift of longsuffering at??
I've asked it before, I'll ask it again: WOULD SATAN SAY, "Oh, I wouldn't go that far in deceiving souls. No, I would not have started to make my own version of Christianity for at least a few hundred years or so. No sir, I wouldn't even think of claiming credit for preserving the scriptures.
"I wouldn't think of claiming a line of church leadership either. I mean, who do people think I am, an angel of light? Yeah, I've got plenty sidekicks, but you surely don't think they could be transformed into ministers of righteousness. You see, they would have to do some really nice things..... for..... people.... to.... think.... they.... are....ministers.... of.... righteousness."
Satan attempted to replace God in Heaven. He has and will continue to attempt to replace anything that God has made, and claim it for his own. I believe the devil started making copycat Christianity within hours of the birth of the church of Jesus Christ, probably using someone that said, "I was there in the upper room", when in reality that person was two blocks down the street. (kind of like the politicians changing their dialects as they pander to the people, "Look at me, I'm one of you!") Thankfully Satan's time is running out.
Come Lord Jesus.
You never know who is "lurking and reading." The Holy Spirit may do the rest. Where it leads, only He knows. We are solely God's instruments. It is true, the premise (article) listed by Iscool, is a horrendous screed. Yet, much great information has come out of this and I have it bookmarked. For Catholics, this is a "family gathering" that includes those from around the world with about 200 side conversations. Personally, I've had a ball. It is in microcosm what makes the Catholic Church so... Divinely inspired!
In Christ+
Frank
Pot: Kettle -- Black
Jerome ties the idea of Christ and the confession with "Christ the Rock" (though not explicitly here).
Chrysostom:
That is, On this faith and confession I will build my Church. Herein shewing that many should believe what Peter had confessed, and raising his understanding, and making him His shepherd.
Augustine
I have said in a certain place of the Apostle Peter, that it was on him, as on a rock, that the Church was built. but I know that since that I have often explained these words of the Lord, “Thou art Peter, and on this rock will I build my Church,” as meaning upon Him whom Peter had confessed in the words, “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God;: and so that Peter, taking his name from this rock, would represent the Church, which is built upon this rock. For it is not said to him, Thou art the rock, but, “Thou art Peter.” But the rock was Christ, [1 Cor 10:4] whom because Simon thus confessed, as the whole Church confesses Him, he was named Peter. Let the reader choose whether of these two opinions seems to him the more probable.
Origen
Wherefore if we, by the revelation of our Father who is in heaven, shall confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, having also our conversation in heaven, to us also shall be said, “Thou art Peter;” for every one is a Rock who is an imitator of Christ. But against whomsoever the gates of hell prevail, he is neither to be called a rock upon which Christ builds His Church; neither a Church, or part of the Church, which Christ builds upon a rock.
More Jerome (which I found intresting):
Bishops and Presbyters, not understanding this passage, assume to themselves something of the lofty pretensions of the Pharisees, and suppose that they may either condemn the innocent, or absolve the guilty; whereas what will be enquired into before the Lord will be not the sentence of the Priests, but the life of him that is being judged.
We read in Leviticus of the lepers, how they are commanded to shew themselves to the Priests; and if they have the leprosy, then they are made unclean by the Priest; not that the Priest makes them leprous and unclean, but that the Priest has knowledge of what is leprosy and what is not leprosy, and can discern who is clean, and who is unclean. In the same way then as there the Priest makes the leper unclean, here the Bishop or Presbyter binds or looses not those who are without sin, or guilt, but in discharge of his function when he has heard the varieties of their sins, he knows who is to be bound, and who loosed.
Chrysostom again:
“And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;” Matt. xvi. 18. that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. “And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” “And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because thou art shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.” (Bold mine)
Gregory VII., in an inscription he sent with a crown to the emperor Rudolph
Petra [i.e., Christ] dedit Petro [i.e., to the apostle], Petrus [the pope] diadema Rudolpho
Origen:
And perhaps that which Simon Peter an swered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God," if we say it as Peter, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven shining in our heart, we too become as Peter, being pronounced blessed as he was, because that the grounds on which he was pronounced blessed apply also to us, by reason of the fact that flesh and blood have not revealed to us with regard to Jesus that He is Christ, the Son of the living God, but the Father in heaven, from the very heavens, that our citizenship may be in heaven, revealing to us the revelation which carries up to heaven those who take away every veil from the heart, and receive "the spirit of the wisdom and revelation" of God. And if we too have said like Peter, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God," not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, "Thou art Peter," etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, add the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.
But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, "Upon this rock I will build My church"? Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven," be common to the others, how shall not all the things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? For in this place these words seem to be addressed as to Peter only, "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven," etc; but in the Gospel of John the Saviour having given the Holy Spirit unto the disciples by breathing upon them said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit," etc.
Many then will say to the Saviour, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;" but not all who say this will say it to Him, as not at all having learned it by the revelation of flesh and blood but by the Father in heaven Himself taking away the veil that lay upon their heart, in order that after this "with unveiled face reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord" they may speak through the Spirit of God saying concerning Him, "Lord Jesus," and to Him, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And if any one says this to Him, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto Him but through the Father in heaven, he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches, to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname of "rock" who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of the rock just as Christ does.
Finally, Cyprian, Augustine and Jerome say that the keys were given to the church,not just to Peter. But that's just the beginning of the discussion.
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