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To: stfassisi
Christ Once said...."Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. ...This means we must exercise our FREE WILL and completely deny ourselves.

Predestination takes away the beauty of God,s Salvation plan for mankind. We are not above angels and angels are NOT Predestined!

I see no need to go round and round on predestination because I see it as a distraction that is divisive amongst Christians.

8 posted on 02/22/2007 5:39:10 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
The difference between ST Augustine and Calvin and Luther was that the the reformers had underlying reasons for rejecting the sacraments was the more fundamental premise of absolute predestination. Those will reach heaven who have been pre-determined to be saved. The very meaning of "grace" was changed. Instead of being a free gift of God's mercy, that we are to accept and cooperate with, grace was re-defined as the selective mercy of God which those receive who are destined to be saved.

ST Augustine understood that the Sacraments are channels of Divine Grace.
Something for you to read

You said
"But if I'm going to be true to the western church fathers, the creeds, the history, and the Reformers, then I must speak correctly."

If you truly thought about what your saying here ,it would mean that you would believe that the Eucharist is truly Jesus Christ- because ALL of the Early Fathers were in complete agreement.

But, you don,t, because of your loyalty to John Calvin.
In a sense,John Calvin,s loyalty allows you to be confused.

ST Augustine Knew the Eucharist is Jesus...
'And was carried in His Own Hands: ‘how carried in His Own Hands'? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, 'This is My Body.'" Augustine, On the Psalms, 33:1,10 (A.D. 392-418).

Dear Brother,
Don,t you realize that you are elevating a doctrine of Predestination above the Sacraments?
9 posted on 02/23/2007 9:47:18 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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