The difference between ST Augustine and Calvin and Luther was that the the reformers had underlying reasons for rejecting the sacraments was the more fundamental premise of absolute predestination. Those will reach heaven who have been pre-determined to be saved. The very meaning of "grace" was changed. Instead of being a free gift of God's mercy, that we are to accept and cooperate with, grace was re-defined as the selective mercy of God which those receive who are destined to be saved.
ST Augustine understood that the Sacraments are channels of Divine Grace.
Something for you to readhttp://www.therealpresence.org/essentials/sacraments/acc33.htm
"But if I'm going to be true to the western church fathers, the creeds, the history, and the Reformers, then I must speak correctly."
If you truly thought about what your saying here ,it would mean that you would believe that the Eucharist is truly Jesus Christ- because ALL of the Early Fathers were in complete agreement.
But, you don,t, because of your loyalty to John Calvin.
In a sense,John Calvin,s loyalty allows you to be confused.
ST Augustine Knew the Eucharist is Jesus...
'And was carried in His Own Hands: how carried in His Own Hands'? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, 'This is My Body.'" Augustine, On the Psalms, 33:1,10 (A.D. 392-418).
Don,t you realize that you are elevating a doctrine of Predestination above the Sacraments?
posted on 02/23/2007 9:47:18 AM PST
("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
The difference between ST Augustine and Calvin and Luther was that the the reformers had underlying reasons for rejecting the sacraments was the more fundamental premise of absolute predestination.
I shouldn't sound like predestination was the main reason of the Reformation. I don't believe that. I generally focus on the doctrine of election because in my mind it is today's central problem. And, personally I don't believe it was the changing of the sacrament for the Reformation. I believe these are all issues that were looked at afterwards.If you truly thought about what your saying here ,it would mean that you would believe that the Eucharist is truly Jesus Christ- because ALL of the Early Fathers were in complete agreement.
I see no change in the meaning of grace. I didn't arrived at my understanding by reading Calvin and Luther but reading Augustine. They simply confirmed that I wasn't crazy in what I was reading. The very fact that the Catholics now reject most of Augustine's Treatise on Predestination is indicative that Augustine had a different interpretation.
I don't believe ALL of them were in complete agreement. I believe MOST of them were. I also believe that most of their views were tainted by their pagan culture. The Catholics are fond of saying that theology is evolutionary. To some extend I would agree (as long as it is rooted in scripture). The Eucharist is one of those issues. Don,t you realize that you are elevating a doctrine of Predestination above the Sacraments?
I blah, blah, blah, on predestination for ever and ever it seems. The only reason is simply because I truly believe that just about every problem and error facing the church/Church today can be traced back to this one flawed doctrine; the self determination of man. I don't mean to sound as if it is more important than any of the other great truths of scripture. It's only that I believe that if one cannot understand God choosing us, then one cannot understand the merciful grace of God or the depravity of our souls. This effects every single doctrine in the church/Church, which, in my belief, is why Augustine fought so hard against it.
posted on 02/23/2007 4:31:11 PM PST
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