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To: Campion; FormerLib; NYer

"There is an immense difference between adulterating the marital act with a barrier...and simply abstaining when she's fertile, on the other."

I guess like FL, I don't see the distinction. I doubt the Fathers, especially guys like +Jerome, would either, had they known somewhat more about the actual biology involved.

Rejecting abortifacients is a no brainer.

In any event, in my Orthodox opinion, dogmatic proclamations like Humanae Vitae, without the possibility of economia, just breed contempt for the teaching authority of The Church. This "dogma" has very clearly been rejected by the Catholic laity which uses ABC at rates slightly higher than the general population. Vatican II gets quite a rap when it comes to the rise of "cafeteria Catholicism", but to my mind, Humanae Vitae as presented played a major role in the collapse of the Latin Church's authority among the laity.

By the way, nothing in Humanae Vitae's ultimate holdings are dogma in Orthodoxy and never were. They are theologoumenna.


18 posted on 02/15/2007 3:22:31 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
In any event, in my Orthodox opinion, dogmatic proclamations like Humanae Vitae, without the possibility of economia, just breed contempt for the teaching authority of The Church.

What do you object to? I think Humanae Vitae began some clarification of the Church's teachings, which could more clearly been seen in John Paul the Great's Theology of the Body. It is wrong to try to separate the unitive and procreative aspects of love. I saw a couple of quotes from the fathers that do not accurately represent the Church's teachings.

Not every act of love must result in pregnancy, but every act of love must mirror the life giving love of the Creator.

I don't know the Orthodox position on this.

21 posted on 02/15/2007 3:44:18 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis

What does this word mean? : "theologoumenna"


40 posted on 02/15/2007 5:41:10 PM PST by walden
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To: Kolokotronis

I disagree, I think Humanae Vitae is a remarkable work of prophecy and showed that in or out of season the Chair of Peter must speak Truth to the times. The fact that the laity just want to be a product of the times rather than eternity is nothing new.


45 posted on 02/15/2007 6:09:17 PM PST by TradicalRC ("...this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever..."-Pope St. Pius V)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer

Have some questions and observations, but to tired to right now.


59 posted on 02/15/2007 7:12:57 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Kolokotronis
By the way, nothing in Humanae Vitae's ultimate holdings are dogma in Orthodoxy and never were. They are theologoumenna.

And how are the birth-rates doing in Orthodox and formerly Orthodox countries these days? Just curious...
208 posted on 02/20/2009 2:16:01 PM PST by Antoninus (License is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom is the right to do as you ought.)
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