Posted on 02/01/2007 9:29:47 AM PST by Ottofire
Because he stands in the shadows of Luther and Calvin, Zwingli (1484-1531) gets overlooked often. His writings can be difficult to track down. One can go to the local bookstore and get a Calvin or Luther bio or anthology, but you’ll do a lot searching to actually get a Zwingli book. When you do read Zwingli, it becomes apparent that he was not on par with either Luther or Calvin.
I’ve always wanted to read Zwingli discussing his Mariology. For the most part, the only people who seem to “care” about Zwingli’s Mariology are Roman Catholics. And really, they probably aren’t interested in actually reading and researching Zwingli. Rather, his writings are used for polemical purposes- to show that an early Reformer had particular beliefs about the Virgin Mary. It does appear that Zwingli did have some similar beliefs about Mary to those found in Roman Catholicism. This is a subject that I plan on exploring. I'd like to see for myself how Zwingli understood the role of Mary. I refuse to be spoon fed Zwingli quotes from Catholic apologetics- for I doubt most of the pop Catholic apologetic writers have actually read Zwingli on this subject.
Well, here's a present from me to the Catholic apologetics community. I did finally track down a piece from Zwingli on Mary. It is a section from the “Sermon on Mary, The Pure Mother of God”. Zwingli preached the sermon in Zurich in the autumn of 1522. In it, you will find Zwingli saying all sorts of things about Mary. He calls her "pure" and "holy", a "spotless virgin" etc. Note though, Zwingli’s explanation of the Greek word "kecharitomene". Zwingli understands the word to mean “favorable”.
“When the angel came in unto Mary, he greeted her with these words: " Hail, thou art full of grace! The Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women." Here it is to be noticed that this word "full of grace" is, translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene," which means beloved, or filled with grace, highly favored, whereby we understand that the word “full of grace " should not be taken to mean that she was from herself full of grace, but that all the grace with which she was so rich and full was from God. For to be full of grace is nothing else than to be highly favored of God and to be chosen before all other women. For grace is only the favor of God. So if I should say that God has given much grace to men, I should say nothing else than God has been very favorable to men and done loving things for them. Therefore is the pure Mary full of grace from God, as she herself sings: "He hath done to me great things." She says not: "I am great from mine own grace," but " the Almighty hath done to me great things." For immediately afterward she adds: "He hath regarded the lowliness of His handmaiden, for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." [Source: Guy Carelton Lee (ed.), The World’s Orators (New York: GP Putnum’s Sons, 1900, 95-96).
posted by James Swan at 6:33 AM
Mary is not dead. She is alive with Christ Jesus on high, along with all others who attained heaven. That is called eternal joy and immmortality.
Some things cause me to wonder--wonder--wonder.
--Where in the world did you get the idea that Catholics "deny the completeness of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross"?
Must you continue to go to mass to get to Heaven? If so, the sacrifice of Jesus is not complete, and you must do a work, the Eucharist, to attain Heaven, and Jesus' death is just one step in the process. And really not the important one, as you can choose to let Him fail on the cross in regards to your salvation. Your choice trumps Gods Will.
--Who told you that Catholics "look to their own works to get them out of harms way"?
If you must confess your sins to a priest to stay out of purgatory or hell, and perform penance, then you are relying on your own works to do so. The death of Jesus on the Cross is not enough for your false gospel. Work work work. Sure hope you do enough to get saved.
--Is that another misunderstanding of what you were taught in your youth?
--Is that another mistaken teaching you learned as a youth?
Fortunately I do not have to rely on the traditions for my salvation, as God inspired the Apostles to write, as Luke says, the firm, secure truth concerning Salvation.
Funny no one has answered my questions as to why these miraculous claims about Mary weren't written down by Paul, John or Luke. Is that answer still is elusive to the Catholic? Anyone want to take the bet that it will remain unchallenged? The silence from the Apostles is deafening also...
You have no idea what I choose or what my choices are nor how they reflect my profession of faith.
Please don't attempt to tell me about them when you don't know.
--And really not the important one, as you can choose to let Him fail on the cross in regards to your salvation. Your choice trumps Gods Will.
-You have no idea what I choose or what my choices are nor how they reflect my profession of faith.
-Please don't attempt to tell me about them when you don't know.
I was speaking of the Perseverance of the Saints, the P in TULIP. I was saying that whether or not Christ died on the cross for the elect, the Catholics teach that you, having faith at one time in your life, can lose your salvation.
I was not speaking to your choices personally, and I am sorry if you took it that way. It is Gods Will that you are Catholic, and I pray that He will use me to bring you to the true faith and salvation.
Thanks ScubieNuc!
Why is it that I can read the Scriptures so many times and miss important verses such as these? I read through Luke again just a few months ago, and whoosh. My comprehension has really been shot since the grey hair started showing up.
"she couldnt have had any stain of sin as Christ couldnt have been carried in the womb of a sinner."
I'm no theology expert but how it was explained to me differs a bit from what you express.
Is it true that Christ "couldn't" have been carried in the womb of a sinner - I have my doubts as nothing is impossible with God.
I once heard the explanation that Christ did this for Mary out of great love for His mother (honor thy father and thy mother) - and also as fulfillment of Genesis - one interpretation being that the "enmity" between the woman and the serpent was fulfilled in Mary. The "enmity" referring to sinlessness, and also creating a "new Adam and new Eve" as we can see referenced to in early christian writings.
Where Eve disobeyed...Mary obeyed.
Were Eve befriended the serpent - Mary was never placed under the dominion of satan.
This doesn't make Mary a goddess...this places her in the original human state prior to the fall.
Ottofire,
I am Catholic to the end and because of my age, I am close to that end.
I am just as sure of my faith and my salvation as you are of yours, yet we are not in agreement about what that means for each of us.
Only God and eternity will solve the difficulty.
The Psalms tell us many things--one says "seventy is the sum of our years and eighty if we are strong"--I relate to that.
Another says"whatever God wills, He does."
If you say "it is God's will that I am Catholic"--then I am living in His will.
Again, as the Psalms say--"God indeed is my Savior, I am confident and unafraid"--and again: "He brought me forth into freedom; He saved me because He loved me."
That you have a problem with me being Catholic, I will have to say is your problem. It isn't for me.
I have made my choice and I am at peace, because "God chose me in Him before the world began".
You can pray for me, if you choose, but the only prayer that would mean anything for me and to me, is that I am in God's will. And it is, indeed, His will that I am Catholic.
Oops, I posted #71 to myself. Doh! I stumbled upon some verses in Matthew you might want to look at. (Matthew 12:46-50)
Enjoy.
oops--"God indeed is my Savior....." that is from Isaiah, not Psalms.
I would say that it means: My mother did the will of my Father, which is in heaven. If you do likewise, you will do as she did. You will become to me as my Mother was.
Mary was the prototypical one who showed the way to do the will of the Father in bringing Jesus to the world.
How could He live with her for 30 years and not have a special relationship with her?. Scripture tells us He was obedient to Mary and Joseph--proving again that he was a man like us in all things but sin", willing to be a young son to them and being under their parental guidance.
How can we deny this without denying Scripture?
Of course, all of this has been hashed over so many times on this forum that it can be redundant.
--How could He live with her for 30 years and not have a special relationship with her?. Scripture tells us He was obedient to Mary and Joseph--proving again that he was a man like us in all things but sin", willing to be a young son to them and being under their parental guidance.
--How can we deny this without denying Scripture?
But it is not mentioned in Scripture! John, who I must assume lived with Mary until she passed, did not mention it.
Luke, who probably talked with Mary to get the detailed account of the Saviors birth and such didn't mention it.
And again, Paul who wrote the 'Salvation for Dummies' in his many epistles never once mentioned Mary in the light of what the RCC teaches. Never as an intermediary, never as a sinless being, and really only mentions someone named Mary once in Romans 16:6, and is probably not THE Mary in contention.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, (NASB).
When she is mentioned, which is only in passing, she is only A woman. The Catholic claim is so much more. If a miracle was involved, and Paul knew about it, why is it not mentioned? More silence from the Apostles.
What we have here is an addition to the Scripture, which is mentioned in inspired Word as a BIG no-no. Additional traditions are nice, but they better be Scripturally sound or they ain't gonna lead you to where you need to be.
I did find and managed to remember that Matthew 12 passage, and had used it in apologia previously.
Imagine Jesus leaving His mother and brothers to sit outside in the crowd, whether she was a sinless being or not!
But the ministry was too important to have her replace one person in the house. She and the rest of her kids had already heard Jesus speak, and that one person probably hadn't.
Yeah.
Again, Jesus is given a perfect opportunity to raise up Mary as an example to follow, but shoots that down by focusing the disciples and listeners onto something else...the will of the Father.
How did the Jews figure out the will of the Father? They searched their Sciptures. What was Matthew passing on to the earliest of Christians? Definately NOT telling people to follow the example of Mary!
Like you have been trying to hammer home...Mariology isn't consistant with the rest of Scripture. Context is everything.
Sincerely
--How did the Jews figure out the will of the Father? They searched their Sciptures.
And how did God fight the false teachers that kept cropping up and tainting the Gospel that the Apostles were teaching? He inspired them to write the stuff down so that future generations of believers could hold in their greedy little hands the Gospel, untainted by traditions and false teachers that the evil one threw out. Even Peter and Barnabas needed correction in Jerusalem.
The tainted human mind is not faithful, but all praise to the Living God that He is faithful to us!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.