Zwingli’s’ Mariology: On Mary “Full of Grace”

Beggars All: Reformation and Apologetics ^ | Thursday, January 18, 2007 | James Swan

[Running On Empty]

Mary is not dead. She is alive with Christ Jesus on high, along with all others who attained heaven. That is called eternal joy and immmortality.

Some things cause me to wonder--wonder--wonder.

[Ottofire]

--Where in the world did you get the idea that Catholics "deny the completeness of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross"?

Must you continue to go to mass to get to Heaven? If so, the sacrifice of Jesus is not complete, and you must do a work, the Eucharist, to attain Heaven, and Jesus' death is just one step in the process. And really not the important one, as you can choose to let Him fail on the cross in regards to your salvation. Your choice trumps Gods Will.

--Who told you that Catholics "look to their own works to get them out of harms way"?

If you must confess your sins to a priest to stay out of purgatory or hell, and perform penance, then you are relying on your own works to do so. The death of Jesus on the Cross is not enough for your false gospel. Work work work. Sure hope you do enough to get saved.

--Is that another misunderstanding of what you were taught in your youth?
--Is that another mistaken teaching you learned as a youth?

Fortunately I do not have to rely on the traditions for my salvation, as God inspired the Apostles to write, as Luke says, the firm, secure truth concerning Salvation.

Funny no one has answered my questions as to why these miraculous claims about Mary weren't written down by Paul, John or Luke. Is that answer still is elusive to the Catholic? Anyone want to take the bet that it will remain unchallenged? The silence from the Apostles is deafening also...

[Running On Empty]

You have no idea what I choose or what my choices are nor how they reflect my profession of faith.

Please don't attempt to tell me about them when you don't know.

[ScubieNuc]

Funny no one has answered my questions as to why these miraculous claims about Mary weren't written down by Paul, John or Luke.

Here's something else I found to be enlightening. In the same gospel that Catholics love to base their "blessed Mary" doctrine, you also have this....

Luke 11:27,28 ¶ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Here you have a perfect chance for Jesus to say "Yes, Mary was specially blessed, and you need to keep that in mind when you want to come to me." Instead you see, as Luke documents and Jesus emphasises in verse 28, that Jesus redirects the woman that those that hear and keep the Word of God (the Bible) are blessed.

This whole discussion about whether Mary was specially blessed or not takes away from what Jesus says...that we all can be blessed by hearing the Word and keeping the Word.

Sincerely

[Ottofire]

--And really not the important one, as you can choose to let Him fail on the cross in regards to your salvation. Your choice trumps Gods Will.

-You have no idea what I choose or what my choices are nor how they reflect my profession of faith.

-Please don't attempt to tell me about them when you don't know.

I was speaking of the Perseverance of the Saints, the P in TULIP. I was saying that whether or not Christ died on the cross for the elect, the Catholics teach that you, having faith at one time in your life, can lose your salvation.

I was not speaking to your choices personally, and I am sorry if you took it that way. It is Gods Will that you are Catholic, and I pray that He will use me to bring you to the true faith and salvation.

[Ottofire]

Thanks ScubieNuc!

Why is it that I can read the Scriptures so many times and miss important verses such as these? I read through Luke again just a few months ago, and whoosh. My comprehension has really been shot since the grey hair started showing up.

[ScubieNuc]

Why is it that I can read the Scriptures so many times and miss important verses such as these?

Maybe so that the Holy Spirit can use me a little? 8^)

I know what you are saying. I think some of it has to do with keeping us studying the Scriptures, and some of it might have to do with joining with others to study.

Obviously, I wasn't the first to see this, and by posting it, I won't be the last. In fact, I think I saw someone else post that observation here on FR. Anyway, I'm glad I could be of some assistance.

Sincerely

[ScubieNuc]

Here's something else I find strange. When I look up "full of Grace" I find only one verse...

John 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When I look up Luke 1:28 I see the word charitoo not kecharitomene for "highly favoured." Charitoo occurs one other time in Eph 1:6...

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Now I realize this breaks down into whose translation you're using, but it seems, IMO, to be quite a huge doctrinal stance on flimsy word parsing.

Sincerely

[Scotswife]

"she couldnt have had any stain of sin as Christ couldnt have been carried in the womb of a sinner."

I'm no theology expert but how it was explained to me differs a bit from what you express.
Is it true that Christ "couldn't" have been carried in the womb of a sinner - I have my doubts as nothing is impossible with God.

I once heard the explanation that Christ did this for Mary out of great love for His mother (honor thy father and thy mother) - and also as fulfillment of Genesis - one interpretation being that the "enmity" between the woman and the serpent was fulfilled in Mary. The "enmity" referring to sinlessness, and also creating a "new Adam and new Eve" as we can see referenced to in early christian writings.

Where Eve disobeyed...Mary obeyed.
Were Eve befriended the serpent - Mary was never placed under the dominion of satan.

This doesn't make Mary a goddess...this places her in the original human state prior to the fall.

[Running On Empty]

Ottofire,

I am Catholic to the end and because of my age, I am close to that end.

I am just as sure of my faith and my salvation as you are of yours, yet we are not in agreement about what that means for each of us.

Only God and eternity will solve the difficulty.

The Psalms tell us many things--one says "seventy is the sum of our years and eighty if we are strong"--I relate to that.

Another says"whatever God wills, He does."

If you say "it is God's will that I am Catholic"--then I am living in His will.

Again, as the Psalms say--"God indeed is my Savior, I am confident and unafraid"--and again: "He brought me forth into freedom; He saved me because He loved me."

That you have a problem with me being Catholic, I will have to say is your problem. It isn't for me.

I have made my choice and I am at peace, because "God chose me in Him before the world began".

You can pray for me, if you choose, but the only prayer that would mean anything for me and to me, is that I am in God's will. And it is, indeed, His will that I am Catholic.

[ScubieNuc]

Oh hey, I found some other verses you might appreciate...

Matt. 12:46-50 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and MOTHER.

Clearly, Jesus is saying that his mother is no better then those who do the will of God the Father.

Sincerely

[ScubieNuc]

Oops, I posted #71 to myself. Doh! I stumbled upon some verses in Matthew you might want to look at. (Matthew 12:46-50)

Enjoy.

[Running On Empty]

oops--"God indeed is my Savior....." that is from Isaiah, not Psalms.

[Running On Empty]

I would say that it means: My mother did the will of my Father, which is in heaven. If you do likewise, you will do as she did. You will become to me as my Mother was.

Mary was the prototypical one who showed the way to do the will of the Father in bringing Jesus to the world.

How could He live with her for 30 years and not have a special relationship with her?. Scripture tells us He was obedient to Mary and Joseph--proving again that he was a man like us in all things but sin", willing to be a young son to them and being under their parental guidance.
How can we deny this without denying Scripture?

Of course, all of this has been hashed over so many times on this forum that it can be redundant.

[Ottofire]

--How could He live with her for 30 years and not have a special relationship with her?. Scripture tells us He was obedient to Mary and Joseph--proving again that he was a man like us in all things but sin", willing to be a young son to them and being under their parental guidance.
--How can we deny this without denying Scripture?

But it is not mentioned in Scripture! John, who I must assume lived with Mary until she passed, did not mention it.

Luke, who probably talked with Mary to get the detailed account of the Saviors birth and such didn't mention it.

And again, Paul who wrote the 'Salvation for Dummies' in his many epistles never once mentioned Mary in the light of what the RCC teaches. Never as an intermediary, never as a sinless being, and really only mentions someone named Mary once in Romans 16:6, and is probably not THE Mary in contention.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, (NASB).

When she is mentioned, which is only in passing, she is only A woman. The Catholic claim is so much more. If a miracle was involved, and Paul knew about it, why is it not mentioned? More silence from the Apostles.

What we have here is an addition to the Scripture, which is mentioned in inspired Word as a BIG no-no. Additional traditions are nice, but they better be Scripturally sound or they ain't gonna lead you to where you need to be.

[ScubieNuc]

You say...I would say that it means: My mother did the will of my Father, which is in heaven. If you do likewise, you will do as she did. You will become to me as my Mother was.

What the Scripture says...

Mat 12:46-50 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Your first breakdown is accurate...Mary did the will of the Father. The rest places Mary as the example to work toward and the directly contradicts verse 50. The emphasis is that whoever does the will of the Father is the SAME as Mary or Jesus's brothers or sisters.

You read that into those verses because you place the doctines of the Catholic Church over the written Word of God. How do you know what the "will of the Father" is?

Psa 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou [art] my God: thy spirit [is] good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Through the Word of God and through the Spirit of God. How do you get the Spirit of God?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You get the Spirit through believing and you believe because you heard the word of truth.

What is "the word of truth?"

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2Tim 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The word of truth is the Gospel or the Scriptures.

So, if what you believe doesn't square with the Bible/the Word of Truth, then it is a fable. Be careful of what you place your faith in, because God will hold you accountable for it.

Rom 2:12,13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In other words, you know what the Word of God says and you do otherwise, you'll be judged with that understanding.

Sincerely

[Ottofire]

I did find and managed to remember that Matthew 12 passage, and had used it in apologia previously.

Imagine Jesus leaving His mother and brothers to sit outside in the crowd, whether she was a sinless being or not!

But the ministry was too important to have her replace one person in the house. She and the rest of her kids had already heard Jesus speak, and that one person probably hadn't.

[ScubieNuc]

Yeah.

Again, Jesus is given a perfect opportunity to raise up Mary as an example to follow, but shoots that down by focusing the disciples and listeners onto something else...the will of the Father.

How did the Jews figure out the will of the Father? They searched their Sciptures. What was Matthew passing on to the earliest of Christians? Definately NOT telling people to follow the example of Mary!

Like you have been trying to hammer home...Mariology isn't consistant with the rest of Scripture. Context is everything.

Sincerely

[Ottofire]

--How did the Jews figure out the will of the Father? They searched their Sciptures.

And how did God fight the false teachers that kept cropping up and tainting the Gospel that the Apostles were teaching? He inspired them to write the stuff down so that future generations of believers could hold in their greedy little hands the Gospel, untainted by traditions and false teachers that the evil one threw out. Even Peter and Barnabas needed correction in Jerusalem.

The tainted human mind is not faithful, but all praise to the Living God that He is faithful to us!

[ScubieNuc]

And how did God fight the false teachers that kept cropping up and tainting the Gospel that the Apostles were teaching? He inspired them to write the stuff down so that future generations of believers could hold in their greedy little hands the Gospel, untainted by traditions and false teachers that the evil one threw out. Even Peter and Barnabas needed correction in Jerusalem.

Amen!