Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
"grounded upon no warranty of Scripture"
Gehenna - Jesus.
Gehenna IS Purgatory, and Hell. Same thing. Temporary hell for those cleansed. Permanent hell for the wicked. Go ask the Jews.
Really? Cause mine says that at the final judgement all those dead in hell are judged.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
You got it! And what will they be judged for? The time they've spent in hell or the time they squandered on earth?
A wise man once told me, "All roads lead to God. Only one road leads to the Father, His Son Jesus Christ."
There is only one verdict for any man that stands before God in judgment: GUILTY!
Thank God for His Son Jesus Christ who paid the price for my sin so I don't have to. And that means PAID IN FULL. Jesus doesn't half-step.
You folks that buy into Purgatory are buying into the concept that the Sacrifice of God's own Son is somehow incomplete, imperfect.
Keep your vain philosophies of men. I'm sticking with Scripture!
point being if they're in hell they've been judged TWICE by the end, not once.
point being the prayers of the saints intercede (also in revelation) BEFORE the FINAL judgement.
And I don't beleive in PURGATORY!
You're over four hundred years behind the times. The selling of indulgences was explicitly condemned by the Council of Trent.
**
It's pointless to argue with the haters, my friend.
"'And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him:They have no wine.
And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.
His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.'
*Mary was nagging, huh?"
Yep.
Telling her son to perform a miracle, and not taking no for an answer.
Mama (giving "the look" to her boy): They're out of wine!
Son (seeing "the look" and knowing what she wants, irritatedly): Why's that OUR problem, woman? [The "woman" bit to his mother is certainly sharp!] And anyway, I'm not supposed to DO public miracles yet, it's not my TIME yet!"
Mama (completely ignoring everything her son has just said, addressing the help): "Do whatever he tells ya!"
Yeah. Nagging.
Mary's the only person in the Bible who ever demanded God do something God said he DIDN'T WANT TO DO, ignored God's response, and then God gave in and did it anyway.
The relationship between God and his mother is very interesting, as is the relationship between any son and his mother.
Right in this little passage, with Mary sort of pushing her boy around in public a little bit, we get a tiny glimpse as to why it is NOT a brilliant idea for anybody to go shooting off his lip about God's mother. God chose Mary as His bride, and to be his own mother, to raise him, nurse him, and be with him to the very end. So whatever her theological significance, she was evidently terribly significant to GOD, His favorite. God had twelve apostles and many prophets, but only ONE mother.
I would respectfully tell our Protestant friends to think, hard, about what they can possibly gain by going hammer and tongs after Mary the way some of them do. God chose this woman above all others. Sure, Jesus said that John the Baptist was greater than all other MEN, but Mary wasn't a man. Catholics shouldn't dig at Protestants too much to bend the knee to Mary. There are too many more important things to worry about. Still, in the interest of everybody's long-term well-being, I would advise a LITTLE BIT of caution, at least, in talking about God's mom.
Nobody likes people who pick on their mom.
What margin is there for anyone, then, on picking on Jesus' mother?
Just seems like a bad idea.
Just seems like one of those things that can at best result in a Pyrrhic Victory.
Especially since God evidently thinks highly enough of his mother to make HER the subject of visions and healings unlike anywhere else at Lourdes.
What BETTER proof of Mary's special relationship to God than the fact that there's no Protestant, or Jewish, or Muslim or Hindu Lourdes? And there's no Lourdes of St. Luke or St. John the Baptist either.
Mary tells Jesus what to do at Cana. He doesn't LIKE IT (his language is correct but impatient and not polite), but he follows the commandment, honors his mother for a command performance miracle, and amazes his friends, thereby launching his preaching career.
Lots of lessons here.
Best one is: be nice about Mary.
If your doctrine takes you in a direction where you're tearing down God's mom, be superstitious and don't do it, for your own good. Nobody's going to get a cookie at judgment from God for insulting his mother.
*True. There is but one.
Millions?
Parables teaching particular point, not commentaries about the afterlife and its make up.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Talks about being perfect. Your extrapolation as a reference to Purgatory, while creative, is utterly ridiculous.
Matt. 12:32 Jesus says, And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next. Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death.
More nonsense. Your conclusion makes absolutely no sense.
Luke 12:47-48; Luke 16:19-31
More parables. They were used to make specific points about specific topics. They teach very good lessons about the topics the Lord intended to teach about. Using them beyond his intention is nothing more than opportunism.
1 Cor. 15:29-30
An odd verse to be sure, but doesn't discuss Purgatory in any way.
Phil. 2:10
Did you simply pull random verses that talk about the final judgment? This has nothing to do with anything other than Christ's supremacy over all creation.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him on that day.
WRONG. Paul asks for mercy on the HOUSE of Onesiphorus. Your omission is incredulous!
And so on, and so forth... You have ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for Purgatory.
You do, however, have non-Scriptural support with Maccabbees and Baruch. Again, this perverse concept is the main reason the RCC added these non-inspired books to their bible.
Nice little story you got going there, but the verse about Mary telling the servants to do as Jesus tells them has a parallel in the OT and means something else all together, and has to do with God, not Mary. The wording is pretty identical and with a little study you will find it.
I saved the pic to my files. It is informative.
The problem with arguing purgatory is that it brings a host of other doctrinal differences to the fore, and each one of those must be individually dealt with.
And the ultimate answer on each one of them: The Magisterium said so.
The charge of killing millions is John Fox-worthy - and just as funny as some of the material of Jeff Foxworthy
Gehenna is NOT hell and eternity.
Jesus was a Jew, talking to Jews.
When Jesus used a Jewish term, like "Korban", if he wanted to CORRECT a Jewish tradition or understanding of the term, he did so. He even corrected Jewish SCRIPTURE itself!
But Jesus just said "Gehenna", and used it in sentence after sentence, to make a point, to Jews.
To JEWS, Gehenna means Hell AND Purgatory. Those who are not lost forever are sent to hell and purged of their sins there, then go to Paradise.
That is what "Gehenna" means. Jesus didn't define it, because he didn't HAVE to. He was talking to Jews. Every Jew understood that meaning. Still do.
Gehenna does NOT necessarily mean permanent hell.
Christians can repeat over and over again that it DOES, but they don't know what they are talking about.
A Jew talking to Jews just saying Gehenna and using it meant what JEWS meant by it, and Gehenna to JEWS includes Purgatory.
It's not really a debatable point.
If Christians have built 4 centuries of doctrines squabbling over this but never bothered to consult the Jews it's the CHRISTIAN'S problem. Jesus was a Jew, and to a JEW, what Jesus meant is clear.
And it's clear to any Christian that reads it as a Jew would read it.
Gehenna is a place of torment, temporal for some, permanent for others, depending on how bad they were in life.
That's just not hard to understand. It's what the term MEANS. If Christians prefer their own traditional doctrines, which don't date from very ancient times at all but from times after they ceased being in close contact with Judaism intellectually, well, they can do so, but the text is self-explanatory, and with just one word Jesus has given the whole answer. Unfortunately, apparently only Jews can understand it, and unfortunately they don't read the Gospels much.
It's sort of like the Great Commandment. It's the opening of the Shema. But Jews today don't know it, and neither do Christians. Pity. Jesus knew that. So did his Jewish audience. And that was a big thing, and why he was so praised for saying it.
And many still deny the Holocaust, too!
If you HAVE evidence the Pope ordered the murder of millions, post it.
*BALDERDASH
There you go again, interpreting Scripture with Scripture instead of by the fables of men and magisteriums.
Mary as cookie-giver; as the instructor to God on earth! What foolishness. Mary is hardly mentioned in the Bible after Christ's birth. God granted her humility in order to be the mother of Jesus Christ. No doubt she would shudder at what has been said and done in her name.
Very insightful post Dr.Eckleburg, but then that is why you're the Doctor.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.