Religion Forum Research Project: God is the Rock

Various | January 25, 2007 | Alamo-Girl

[Quix]

Different facts involved. Won't go there at present. I have enough fish to fry and a class to teach at 1600

[Claud]

No. Korah advanced the priesthood of all REBELS.

LOL...oh Quix. And when that Augustinian monk went up and nailed 95 Theses on the door of Wittenberg cathedral, what was he? A reformer? But not a rebel? And Joseph Smith? And whoever the guy was that started the JWs? Those were not reformers but rebels? Who are the reformers and the rebels in the Episcopal Church right now? And the Arians, Nestorians, what were they, reformers or rebels?

My point being to illustrate that every rebel thinks he's a reformer. :)

[Quix]

My point being to illustrate that every rebel thinks he's a reformer. :)
= = =

Which is why we are yet again back at

HOLY SPIRIT BEING THE AUTHORITY EXPRESSED THROUGH THE MOST HUMBLE OLD CODGERS IN THE LOCAL CONGREGATION WITH THE CONGREGATION AS A GROUP EXPRESSING THEIR DISCERNMENT FROM HOLY SPIRIT ON THE ISSUES.

God's solution to the vain-glorious self-glorifications inherent in hierarchical structures and pontifical titles and positions.

in ALL groups secular and religious BUT PARTICULARLY RELIGIOUS.

[Claud]

Different facts involved. Won't go there at present. I have enough fish to fry and a class to teach at 1600

Speaking of which I'm going to get fired if I keep this up....I'll try to catch up with everyone's comments tomorrow. :)

[Quix]

No sweat.

Blessings,

[Campion]

The distinction you're missing is that once Christ comes, there is no need for any other ruler than Christ.

IOW, Christ came to institute every-man-for-himself anarchy?

Let's see, Paul didn't believe that, Peter didn't believe that, Ignatius didn't believe that, Ambrose didn't, Augustine didn't, Luther didn't, and Calvin didn't.

Are you sure you really do?

Hebrews 13:7, 17.

[1000 silverlings]

IOW, Christ came to institute every-man-for-himself anarchy?

When did Christ step down as head? Why the Holy spirit?

[Campion]

When did Christ step down as head?

He didn't. He appointed a deputy to rule in his place.

Why the Holy spirit?

The Holy Spirit is not the author of contradiction or factionalism, which what the "no ruler but Christ" position leads to inevitably ... which is why nobody actually practices it.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the ping to your sidebar!

Seems to me there are two views, either Christ named Simon Peter in the incident recorded in Matthew 16 - or Simon was already known as Peter and Christ used that other name to emphasize His point in Matthew 16.

I have no leaning in the Spirit either way on that point but strongly on the point that God is the Rock (Deu 32:1-4) - and Peter is more like Abraham in the construction of the body of believers, both Christian and Jew. Which is to say, first rocks in their confessions - and both called by Almighty God.

Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah [that] bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. – Isaiah 51:1-2

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. – Matt 16:17-18

[1000 silverlings]

Yes, the Deputy is the Holy Spirit, congratulations

1 John 2:2:25

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

2:27

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[1000 silverlings]

John 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[Campion]

Yes, the Deputy is the Holy Spirit, congratulations

So then St. Paul going from town to town appointing elders in every place (Ti 1:5) and Hebrews enjoining obedience to human authorities in the church (Heb 13:7,13:17) was just ... what, a distraction? And when Jesus said "Who hears you, hears me" he was in error, forgetting about the Holy Spirit's power to infallibly guide a herd of individuals? And this business of Jesus founding a "church," well ...

Read the church fathers and find out how far you are from authentic early Christianity.

[Campion]

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

And to whom did Our Lord speak those words?

[1000 silverlings]

And to whom did Our Lord speak those words?

To everyone who hears and reads the words

[FourtySeven]

Speaking as a Catholic, of which (Catholicism) this post seems directed against, I have honestly never understood why the passage in Matthew gives Protestants such consternation.

Jesus used the word for "rock" to rename Simon bar Jonah.

Does this mean that Catholics/Catholicism believes that God is no longer a "rock of salvation"? IOW, does it mean that Catholics believe Peter REPLACES God? I can say with reasonable confidence, "of course not".

It's a symbolic description of Peter's role in the new Church Jesus was founding. That doesn't mean that God isn't the Head of the Church, it simply means here, on earth, the earthly, fleshly, visible head is the Pope.

Here's something to consider: There can be, logically speaking, two "rocks", one, the "Rock", being God, "rock steady for all eternity", and the other a "rock" as in a cornerstone for the visible Church here on Earth. Note the Capital and lowercase lettering. Does that make it more palitable? Does that stress enough the Catholic teaching I know to exist?

The Pope is the Vicar (meaning representitive, not substitute for) of Christ here on earth, a "little 'r' rock" if you will. God, is the "Rock", the "Rock of Salvation", an eternal rock Who's Nature is to build on Faith. What better way to build a mighty Church on earth than to confer such authority to a leader, a "rock on the earth", as Peter?

Put another way, IMO, the point of Matt 16:18 is not to "replace" God as "the Rock", but rather to place a "rock", in the form of Peter, a human being, here, on Earth, a foundation upon which the rest of the Church can rely. I think that notion is supported by the plain reading of the passage.

Forget about debating "rocks", and get into the meat of the Word.

[OLD REGGIE]

He's not renaming Simon in Matthew 4:18. That's the evangelist talking, and he's writing to Christians a few years after the resurrection who knew exactly who "Simon called Peter" was. Matthew designates him "Simon called Peter" in 4:18 to distinguish him from other men named "Simon," in particular Simon the zealot party member.

That's entirely possible. Of course John might have been mistaken about what took place at the first meeting between Jesus and Simon.

John 1:

[42] He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter).

I imagine it's also possible that Jesus took the "Rockyness" away from Peter the last time, recorded in Scripture, He spoke to him.

John 21:

[15] When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

[16] A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep

." [17] He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" -- John 14:18

Amen. Can we read any more beautiful words?

[1000 silverlings]

Peter himself said that we are to grow in our knowledge of Christ, and we do this with the help of the HS, no other. Little spiritual children need leaders and teachers, but a time should come when one grows up, and this is true spiritually as well as physically and mentally.

Being spoon-fed pablum is good for babies, and so are nice little homilies about Mary and lambs. Growing up is natural.

1Co 13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

. You should put your trust in God, not man. Why, even Peter said so!

Acts 5:29

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights!

But truly the article is not anti-Catholic - if anything, it is pro-Torah.

The point of the research project is that the specially announced Name of God, The Rock, was lost in the Septuagint and Vulgate translations.

So instead of "God is The Rock" being one of His Names, in the Song of Moses and the Torah - the term "rock" has been picked up more as a metaphor for God rather than a Name.

Notably most of the debate on this thread has centered around what "rock" means when applied to Peter. (And sadly, next to nothing about the term used in reference to Abraham.)

Nevertheless, my concern is that the Name of God be understood among all believers, Christian and Jew: God is The Rock. It is in the Song of Moses which will be proclaimed in eternity.

[OLD REGGIE]

See John 1:42. It appears Jesus renamed Simon to Peter the first time He met him.

Interestingly, the Catechism Of The Catholic Church teaches that it was Peter's confession of faith which was/is the rock.

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.