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To: vladimir998
Please consider that the late Pope John Paul II apologized for what happened to Galileo, Giordano Bruno, and others under the Inquisition. The devout Catholics, Franco and Salazar, permitted non-Catholic worship and did not punish Protestant or other non-Catholic clergy during their rule of their respective countries. In fact, Franco permitted the return of the Jews to Spain after 450 years of exile. Even in the 16th Century, there were Catholic voices that opposed the abuses of regimes that acted in the name of the Catholic Church: Bartolomeo de Casas and the School of Salamanca. Your rationalization of the murder of Protestants in England, and presumably elsewhere, is certainly out of step with your church's current leadership and the actions of Catholic civil rulers and clergy.

Stalin had both Marxists who opposed him and non-Marxists (kulaks, religious believers, ethnic minorities) killed. There may have been a degree of poetic justice in the imprisonment and execution of the Marxists, but both groups were persecuted or murdered under color of law. There is no essential difference between the actions of Stalin and those of Queen Mary or Queen Elizabeth I, other than the scale of murder. If the premises for a trial are based on unjust law, then the trial is therefore unjust and those sentenced are murdered.

As to your presumption that Protestantism leads to atheism, history indicates its falsehood. The first major outburst of atheism occurred in the French Revolution, in a nation where the Protestant influence was effectively removed following the revocation of the Edict of Nantes and the emigration of the Huguenots to America and the Protestant nations of Europe. A major seedbed of atheism was Germany, a nation divided between Protestants and Catholics and where the devastation of the Thirty Years War caused many Germans to reject religion altogether. In the late 19th and early 20th Century, regimes in Italy, Mexico, and Spain, where Protestantism never established more than a toehold and where the government and Catholic Church effectively suppressed religious dissent, were extremely anticlerical. The anticlerical parties in those countries were influenced by atheistic, Grand Orient Masonry, based in France, and severely persecuted the Catholic Church and the clergy. As you are probably aware, the unified Italian republic, led by Grand Orient Masons, stole the Papal States and forced several Popes into exile in the Vatican. The first successful Communist revolution was in Russia, a nation historically neither Catholic nor Protestant, but Orthodox. The most powerful foe of Communism during the Cold War era was the United States, a nation mainly founded by Protestants and with a Protestant majority (at least until recently).

98 posted on 12/21/2006 2:26:59 PM PST by Wallace T.
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To: Wallace T.

you wrote:

"Please consider that the late Pope John Paul II apologized for what happened to Galileo, Giordano Bruno, and others under the Inquisition. The devout Catholics, Franco and Salazar, permitted non-Catholic worship and did not punish Protestant or other non-Catholic clergy during their rule of their respective countries."

You know less than you think. Just to give you but one example: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,772711,00.html

It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about.

"In fact, Franco permitted the return of the Jews to Spain after 450 years of exile. Even in the 16th Century, there were Catholic voices that opposed the abuses of regimes that acted in the name of the Catholic Church: Bartolomeo de Casas and the School of Salamanca. Your rationalization of the murder of Protestants in England, and presumably elsewhere, is certainly out of step with your church's current leadership and the actions of Catholic civil rulers and clergy."

I made no rationalization of murder whatsoever. Cramner and Ridley were not murdered. I am also not at all out of step with the pope or my Church. You simply have no idea of what you're talking about.

"Stalin had both Marxists who opposed him and non-Marxists (kulaks, religious believers, ethnic minorities) killed. There may have been a degree of poetic justice in the imprisonment and execution of the Marxists, but both groups were persecuted or murdered under color of law."

True. I was in no way thinking about them, however. I, like most people, first consider the simple, innocent people of Russia, Ukraine and elsewhere when I put the words "Communist" and "murder" together.

"There is no essential difference between the actions of Stalin and those of Queen Mary or Queen Elizabeth I, other than the scale of murder. If the premises for a trial are based on unjust law, then the trial is therefore unjust and those sentenced are murdered."

Nonsense. Stalin murdered for personal glee as much for his stupid five year plans. Mary never murdered anyone. About 300 prominent Protestants were tried under English law and executed while she was queen. Mary did not relish these executions. That is known. Elizabeth did urge on the killing and brought the killing to Ireland as well. Mary also convinced the Church to not pursue any claims to old properties stolen under Henry VIII. She did not want civil strife or discord, but she also believed in protecting souls from ruinous doctrine (she, like just about every other monarch in the early sixteenth century swore a coronation oath to protect the faith and the faithful from heresy). Elizabeth was different. She made no decision that might weaken her power or endanger her throne. Mary did so out of sincere belief in principle.

"As to your presumption that Protestantism leads to atheism, history indicates its falsehood."

It is not my presumption. It is a fact. All Protestant nations, save the USA, have become essentially atheist.

"The first major outburst of atheism occurred in the French Revolution, in a nation where the Protestant influence was effectively removed following the revocation of the Edict of Nantes and the emigration of the Huguenots to America and the Protestant nations of Europe. A major seedbed of atheism was Germany, a nation divided between Protestants and Catholics and where the devastation of the Thirty Years War caused many Germans to reject religion altogether. In the late 19th and early 20th Century, regimes in Italy, Mexico, and Spain, where Protestantism never established more than a toehold and where the government and Catholic Church effectively suppressed religious dissent, were extremely anticlerical. The anticlerical parties in those countries were influenced by atheistic, Grand Orient Masonry, based in France, and severely persecuted the Catholic Church and the clergy. As you are probably aware, the unified Italian republic, led by Grand Orient Masons, stole the Papal States and forced several Popes into exile in the Vatican. The first successful Communist revolution was in Russia, a nation historically neither Catholic nor Protestant, but Orthodox. The most powerful foe of Communism during the Cold War era was the United States, a nation mainly founded by Protestants and with a Protestant majority (at least until recently)."

You only have the picture half right. Protestantism was grounded in rationalism. The development of Protestantism along rationalistic lines meant that it would inevitably lead to atheism through modernism and liberalism. You forget just how Protestant and rationalistic the French Revolution was. Masonry was founded by Protestants in England in 1725. Its beliefs never fit in with Catholicism. It is, in fact, a Protestant/rationalistic parody of orthodox Christianity.


99 posted on 12/21/2006 3:25:24 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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