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To: D-fendr
How would you define a "work" ?

In general, I think I agree with the view that works are the means through which merit is generated. So, if one goes through life participating in rituals and doing good deeds because that is central to his understanding of salvation/theosis, then he follows what I call a "works-based" salvation model. Reformers, OTOH, believe that salvation is had not by the "works" of men, but by the work of Christ already done.

8,506 posted on 02/01/2007 5:10:36 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Reformers, OTOH, believe that salvation is had not by the "works" of men, but by the work of Christ already done.

The magic words are "already done".

I feel like a vaudeville gag which is is told so often that soon the laughter is not because it's funny but only because it's familiar.

The works are a gift. The merit is a gift. It is all gift.

The stock prayer at the end of the Rosary is in versicle/response form, thus:
V: Pray for us, Oh Holy Mother of God,
R: That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Would somebody please notice the mystery of this simple exchange? (I'm not asking that anyone agree, just that they notice.)

In the normal conversation about "just deserts" and all that, the notion is that because of my -- famed in legend and song -- innate abilities and virtues AND my marvelous accomplishments, I "merit" or "deserve" or "am worthy" of certain rewards.

Anyone who has (a) lived more than 10 minutes as an adult and (b) read chapters 6-8 of Romans knows that this is on its face ridiculous, when the thing in question is the favor of God. So we ask, not that the worthiness we have be acknowledged, but that we be made worthy -- that some change be wrought so that the worthiness of which we are incapable be made in us.

Let me rephrase: Mary, please ask God to tear down this termite ridden and vermin infested hovel that I currently am, and to erect in its place a dwelling in which He would be pleased to dwell.

Now the Reformers say we are proud. If a beggar girl, afflicted with an STD AND a lousy complexion, were taken out of the gutter, washed, cleaned, bathed, healed, vaccinated, given all the facials it took, exercised, toned, sculpted, and incomprehensibly rejuvenated, and then the One who did all that to her and for her said, "You are so beautiful; I love you; will you marry me, and live for ever with Me in bliss?" would you say she was proud to rejoice in the beauty and health He had given her and loved in her? Would you rather He left her lousy, sick, stinking, and rotting and loved her just the same?

Yes, the once for all sacrifice of Christ is the well-spring of worthiness. And it is the grace of God that leads us there and holds our lips to the water, and teaches us to suck, and our thirst is quenched.

I say this, and then am said to think that my works lead me to deserve God's favor; I am told I think my works lead to the quenching of my thirst. Can any one wonder why I think this is madness?

Wonders never cease, and the preference to see what one thinks is there before seeing what is in fact there is very strong, sometimes too strong for me to confront.

8,508 posted on 02/01/2007 6:05:50 PM PST by Mad Dawg ("It's our humility which makes us great." -- Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers)
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To: Forest Keeper

thanks for your reply.

Would it be accurate to say that the difference in your view is not the works but what one believes about salvation in regards to them?

And further that nothing one does before salvation can affect his/her salvation; And, hypothetically, nothing one does afterward can affect his/her salvation.

Would that be an accurate description of Reformed theology?


8,516 posted on 02/01/2007 7:07:30 PM PST by D-fendr
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