The magic words are "already done".
I feel like a vaudeville gag which is is told so often that soon the laughter is not because it's funny but only because it's familiar.
The works are a gift. The merit is a gift. It is all gift.
The stock prayer at the end of the Rosary is in versicle/response form, thus:
V: Pray for us, Oh Holy Mother of God,
R: That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Would somebody please notice the mystery of this simple exchange? (I'm not asking that anyone agree, just that they notice.)
In the normal conversation about "just deserts" and all that, the notion is that because of my -- famed in legend and song -- innate abilities and virtues AND my marvelous accomplishments, I "merit" or "deserve" or "am worthy" of certain rewards.
Anyone who has (a) lived more than 10 minutes as an adult and (b) read chapters 6-8 of Romans knows that this is on its face ridiculous, when the thing in question is the favor of God. So we ask, not that the worthiness we have be acknowledged, but that we be made worthy -- that some change be wrought so that the worthiness of which we are incapable be made in us.
Let me rephrase: Mary, please ask God to tear down this termite ridden and vermin infested hovel that I currently am, and to erect in its place a dwelling in which He would be pleased to dwell.
Now the Reformers say we are proud. If a beggar girl, afflicted with an STD AND a lousy complexion, were taken out of the gutter, washed, cleaned, bathed, healed, vaccinated, given all the facials it took, exercised, toned, sculpted, and incomprehensibly rejuvenated, and then the One who did all that to her and for her said, "You are so beautiful; I love you; will you marry me, and live for ever with Me in bliss?" would you say she was proud to rejoice in the beauty and health He had given her and loved in her? Would you rather He left her lousy, sick, stinking, and rotting and loved her just the same?
Yes, the once for all sacrifice of Christ is the well-spring of worthiness. And it is the grace of God that leads us there and holds our lips to the water, and teaches us to suck, and our thirst is quenched.
I say this, and then am said to think that my works lead me to deserve God's favor; I am told I think my works lead to the quenching of my thirst. Can any one wonder why I think this is madness?
Wonders never cease, and the preference to see what one thinks is there before seeing what is in fact there is very strong, sometimes too strong for me to confront.
... I feel like a vaudeville gag which is told so often that soon the laughter is not because it's funny but only because it's familiar.
The works are a gift. The merit is a gift. It is all gift.
If you want to characterize it this way, which is fine with me, all that means is that the "work" is transferred into your acceptance of the gift. That is an action which you must take of yourself, as I have been told. That is the "cooperation" necessary for a Catholic salvation. Of course, God is always there to help, but as I have been told the final decision is totally up to you. What I was saying is that Reformers have a very different view, that nothing is left up to the fallible decisions of God's elect in terms of whether they will be saved or not.
In the context of the rest of your answer, I don't know why you say the magic words are "already done".
The stock prayer at the end of the Rosary is in versicle/response form, thus: V: Pray for us, Oh Holy Mother of God, R: That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Would somebody please notice the mystery of this simple exchange? (I'm not asking that anyone agree, just that they notice.)
Well, solely on the point of this conversation, I would say the prayer "sounds" fine. However, my understanding of the Catholic view of "That we may be made worthy" really only means that God will prepare a person to a degree such that he is able to make an independent free will choice. IOW, no guarantees AT ALL even if the prayer is fully answered in the positive. In Catholicism, "to be made worthy" here says ZERO about whether a person is or ever will be actually saved or not. This is what I have been told on FR.
So we ask, not that the worthiness we have be acknowledged, but that we be made worthy -- that some change be wrought so that the worthiness of which we are incapable be made in us.
Yes, but... :) Since I learned what it was, I don't think of Catholics as being full Pelagians because you do say and are consistent that you cannot do it by yourselves. God must contribute for you to have a chance. However, AFTER God makes you "worthy" it still takes your own "worthiness" to take the final plunge into acceptance. This is where we honestly disagree.
Now the Reformers say we are proud. If a beggar girl, afflicted with an STD AND a lousy complexion, were taken out of the gutter, washed, cleaned, bathed, healed, vaccinated, given all the facials it took, exercised, toned, sculpted, and incomprehensibly rejuvenated, and then the One who did all that to her and for her said, "You are so beautiful; I love you; will you marry me, and live for ever with Me in bliss?" would you say she was proud to rejoice in the beauty and health He had given her and loved in her? Would you rather He left her lousy, sick, stinking, and rotting and loved her just the same?
"No" to both. But what has this to do with Reformers? God certainly does transform His elect. If YOU found such a beggar girl what would you think God would want you to do? Would you contact the proper authorities for her own good, or would you respect her free will decision to remain slowly dying in the street? Within the metaphor, this is another honest difference between Reformers and Catholics.
Yes, the once for all sacrifice of Christ is the well-spring of worthiness. And it is the grace of God that leads us there and holds our lips to the water, and teaches us to suck, and our thirst is quenched.
I say this, and then am said to think that my works lead me to deserve God's favor; I am told I think my works lead to the quenching of my thirst. Can any one wonder why I think this is madness?
I agree with the first paragraph so much I could have written it myself if I could have thought to put it that well. :) However, this isn't Catholicism as it has been described to me on FR. What I have been told is that your works WILL lead you to your ultimate salvation (the quenching of your thirst), and that God made it possible for you to make that choice.
In your first paragraph, you make an INCREDIBLY important jump, one that I fully agree with, but have been told that Catholics do not agree with. It was when you went from "teaches us to suck" straight to "our thirst is quenched". This is the Reformed view. What I have been told about the Catholic view is there is another step in between. That is, man must first make his own free will decision, based on all the goodness he was born with and has made for himself, to DECIDE to drink. Reformers say that God made the thirst so irresistible for His elect that the decision to drink was a forgone conclusion. Catholics have told me that God didn't do this at all. Rather, that God SO respects a man's idiocy that He will willingly let a man, whom God loves and wants him to drink, dehydrate to death one inch away from the water God just taught him how to drink. Reformers, to the contrary, say that if God teaches someone how to drink, that person will learn the lesson and drink. :)
Please remember that all of my criticisms are based on what I claim I have been told. I am sure that I will be called on the carpet, as appropriate. :)