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To: annalex; Alamo-Girl; Quix; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; ...
Maybe you find Calvin "long and boring and self-evident" because you're missing his point.

So Papists do frivolous works and Calvinists do real works? What does it have to do with anything?

No, Papists believe their good works can earn them salvation, while Protestants know that good works are the result of the Holy Spirit opening our hearts to God because of Christ's atonement alone.

"They (RCC) confess their sins are freely forgiven in baptism, but they will have them redeemed with satisfactions after baptism;"

Calvin here refers to the fact that the RCC teaches you must be forgiven over and over and over again through confession and priestly absolution and further good works, when in fact God's children were forgiven every sin once for all time by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who redeemed His flock in full.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is attached to baptism. Calvin does not dispute that.

Calvin would not put the Holy Spirit in second place to baptism as he carefully explained in the Commentary I gave. Baptism flows from the Holy Spirit and is accomplished by the will of God, not the will of the church.

Is it your contention that the Church receives the Holy Spirit but does not give it to anyone?

Believers receive the Holy Spirit. Believers make up a congregation. The Holy Spirit speaks to and regenerates the individual heart of each believer. The congregation and the groups of congregations making up the church exist to preach the Good News of the Gospel and to enjoy glorying God in unison.

The church exists by the will of God, led by the Holy Spirit, to serve Jesus Christ. Not vice versa.

Everything, absolutely everything, is subordinate to Jesus Christ.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH

CHAPTER 25
OF THE CHURCH

1. The catholic or universal church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

2. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.

3. Unto this catholic visible church Christ hath given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and doth, by his own presence and Spirit, according to his promise, make them effectual thereunto.

4. This catholic church hath been sometimes more, sometimes less visible. And particular churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.

5. The purest churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a church on earth, to worship God according to his will.

6. There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof."


13,406 posted on 04/23/2007 1:53:50 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; annalex; Quix; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; ...
annalex: Is it your contention that the Church receives the Holy Spirit but does not give it to anyone?

Dr. Eckleburg: Believers receive the Holy Spirit. Believers make up a congregation. The Holy Spirit speaks to and regenerates the individual heart of each believer. The congregation and the groups of congregations making up the church exist to preach the Good News of the Gospel and to enjoy glorying God in unison.

The church exists by the will of God, led by the Holy Spirit, to serve Jesus Christ. Not vice versa.

Everything, absolutely everything, is subordinate to Jesus Christ.

Indeed. Thank you so much for your excellent post!

Truly, the thought of the Church - or any thing other than a mortal man - being able to receive the Holy Spirit strikes me as bizarre since Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a man, telling him that he must be born again.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - John 3:5-6

Actually, even imagining a mortal man "receiving" (as in physically catching) the Holy Spirit strikes me as odd. It is a rebirth.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:8


13,429 posted on 04/23/2007 11:20:12 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe
you're missing his point

He has no point. He has froth around his mouth. I showed why his jabs at the Church do not follow from the scripture he pretends to be reading. Let us see if Westmister Confession, and your remarks, patched his opus up sufficiently for the whole to begin to make sense.

Papists believe their good works can earn them salvation, while Protestants know that good works are the result of the Holy Spirit opening our hearts to God because of Christ's atonement alone

I understand the Calvin's throad clearings had to do with it. Problem with this statement is, either the Church does not teach it or there is no scripture to back it up, depending how you weasel around the words. Good works, we teach, advance out sanctification and are necessary for salvation as they form faith. They do not earn salvation in any transactional sense, but rather they form our faith, and of course all of it is only possible because of the merits of Christ. This is what the scripture teaches (2 Romans 2:6-10, James 2:11-26, Luke 17:5-10, 1 Cor 13:13), and Calvin should be addressing. Naked sloganeering is not helping his cause.

Calvin here refers to the fact that the RCC teaches you must be forgiven over and over and over again

He is referring to that, but he is wrong and does not provide any support for his error. I covered that in my previous post.

Baptism flows from the Holy Spirit and is accomplished by the will of God, not the will of the church.

I do not dispute that the individual baptism and the individual gift of salvation go together; I would not dogmatically put one over the other as the scripture does not do so; your own speculation does. The decision to baptize or not baptize belongs to the sponsors and secondarily to the Church. Regardless of the individual disposition of the participants, any valid baptism is baptism into the Catholic Chruch, as there is no other. If Calvine has any dispute with this Catohlic teaching. he failed to express it.

Believers make up a congregation

This is not scriptural. "I shall build my Church", not "you shall make up congregations".

invisible/visible

is an exptrascriptural speculation. The scruiptural truth is tha tthe Church is the mystical body of Christ, build on the rock of Peter, one body, one doctrine, one baptism.

13,436 posted on 04/24/2007 7:47:59 AM PDT by annalex
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