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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Quix; betty boop; hosepipe; Forest Keeper; annalex; jo kus
Magnificent essay, dear Kolokotronis! Sad that it is posted on such a long, old thread – it would make for a great article in its own right, especially in light of the last paragraph.

And thank you oh so very much for your encouragements and insights, dear kosta50 and Quix!

Because the subjects I'd like to address are related to all of your posts, I hope y'all don't mind that I am consolidating the reply here.

kosta50: As far as "time" is concerned, it records change. Change is the result of corruption, for that which is incorrupt doesn't change. Thus, we say that God is eternal (a chronological concept) because He is without corrption and outside of nature (i.e. supra-natural).

Indeed, Aristotle used counting (1,2,3 etc.) to explain time.

And since the 1850’s, when Rudolf Clausius first identified entropy, scientists point to that phenomenon to explain time. Entropy is energy turned to waste, the concept that eventually became known as the “second law of thermodynamics.” Cars rust, our bodies fall apart with age, etc. and thus man senses that time proceeds in one direction (the arrow of time.)

Side comment: I might add that the sense of time passing would be the obvious consequence of being an observer "in" space/time. An arrow of time is meaningless in timelessness.

But of a truth the concept of change v permanence vis-à-vis the sense of time passing is quite ancient. Heraclitus, a pre-Socratic philosopher, was first to identify that dynamic relations obtain between permanence and flux. And we can see that dynamic in the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

IOW, the first law of thermodynamics is that energy is conserved (permanence) and the second the energy is dissipated, i.e. entropy increases (flux.)

It also has a parallel in mathematics, i.e. the fractal. Fractals display self similarity at all scales. A common example is a coastline, the shorter the ruler, the longer the length measured.

Or for more fun, try the Mandelbrot set by clicking here. Just click on the “draw set” and “ok” - then click on zoom in (or out) and select some point and “ok”.

The two aspects of permanence and change become apparent in viewing the Mandelbrot set – the infinite and the finite – the self-similarity that obtains.

Eugene Wigner coined the term “unreasonable effectiveness” in his famous essay when he illustrated that math is unreasonably effective in understanding nature. A great example is Riemannian geometry which was described with no known application for it – and yet when Einstein was needing to describe the structure of space/time, he was able to pull Riemannian geometry off the shelf to do so.

Fascinating.

The flux/permanence phenomenon also can be seen in biological systems. For instance, “you” remain “you” even though every molecule in your body is replaced every seven years. Likewise, every molecular machine in your body will struggle for “you” to survive, even though the machinery has no brain or physical reason to do so. For instance, the molecular machinery will find new paths to route blood around dead tissue in your heart should you suffer a heart attack.

My assertion is that God the Father has revealed Himself in four different ways: in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son – in the Holy Spirit – in Scriptures – and in Creation.

More specifically to our conversation here, I assert that we can see all four revelations speaking of this dynamic relationship between permanence and flux. God is permanent (I AM) whereas carnal men (who have not yet become Christian) are entirely in the flux of this corrupted, physical realm.

Yet for those of us who have died to this world, the new heaven and new earth is assured - and there perhaps there will be no flux anymore:

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. - Ex 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. – Malachi 3:6

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. – Hebrews 13:8

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. – John 3:6-7

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Gal 2:20

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Col 3:3

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. – Matt 10:39

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea... and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end... – Rev 21:1-8

Praise God!!! Maranatha, Jesus!

kosta50: In other words, the galactic realities tell us that corruption predates man. And that clashes with everything the Bible says.

The leaning that I have in the Spirit sees no problem here, i.e. that Genesis 1 is written from the aspect of God as the observer and author and the subject is not only the creation of the physical realm but the spiritual as well. Further, the leaning I have is that Genesis 2 through 4 occur in the spiritual realm and culminates when Adam is banished to mortality thus beginning the Adamic clock, Rosh Hashanah – Adam’s “birth” date, when his mortal clock began .

Scriptural evidence for all of this includes:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Gen 1:1

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. – Gen 2:1

The Tree of Life which is in the center of the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:9) and Paradise (Rev 2:7)

“And every plant of the field before it was in the earth,” in Genesis 2

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed in the Garden of Eden where Adam could observe it (fruits of good and evil) but he was strictly forbidden to feed on it, to take the fruits into himself under pain of death, death (muwth muwth – Gen 2:17)

That Adam was told he would die on the very day he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17) – and he died after being being a mortal for 930 years (Gen 5:5). And a day to God is 1,000 years to man (Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8)

All of you may strongly disagree with the above which is plenty ok with me because whereas we are each led by the same Spirit - yet we may have differences in understanding – not unlike the differences between John, Peter, Paul, James, Thomas, etc. If each of us were to look at a seven faceted diamond from a different aspect, we may see something a bit differently - but it is still the same diamond and the same Light.

12,599 posted on 04/14/2007 8:10:30 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Masterful as usual.

Though I think it was truncated in a spot or two. I love reading your elaborations on such.


12,601 posted on 04/14/2007 8:59:51 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Kolokotronis; Quix; betty boop; hosepipe; Forest Keeper; annalex; jo kus
A-G you always take every thread to am higher intellectual level. Thank you. Pleas don't stop.

Below is a picture of a tiny, very tiny section (less than your fingernail covers) of space, that actually shows only three stars (recognizable by a cross-like diffraction pattern formed by the secondary mirror ('spider') support of a reflecting telescope). The rest of the objects in this small field are galaxies. And the rest of the deep sky shots, all 360-degrees of it, are studded with nothing but galaxies.

A galaxy contains millions of stars. Ours, the Milky Way, home of our solar system and millions of stars in it, is traversed by light traveling at 160,000 miles per second (that's the distance from the earth to the moon) in 100,000 years.

A close-up of colliding galaxies. Note the stars (cross-like images) that are part of our galaxy. The white "puffs" in the larger galaxy are actually star clusters, not individual stars.

Our sun is an average yellow star, whose light takes eight minutes to reach us. Our closest star (α-centarui) sends light that takes 4 years to reach us. The light we see of our closest galaxy, the Andromeda, left 2 million years ago.

There are billions of galaxies out there. Their cataclysms and catastrophic extragalactic supernovae star explosions have been recorded by the images that traveled millions of years to reach us.

Galactic supernova — a giant star (arrow) expodes in a distant galaxy NGC 2841 50 million years ago.

When I say that corruption predates mankind, I mean it. We did not usher corruption as the Bible says. God did not create just the heaven and the earth. That much is obvious.

12,602 posted on 04/14/2007 9:20:45 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Alamo-Girl; kosta50; hosepipe; Kolokotronis; Quix
kosta50: In other words, the galactic realities tell us that corruption predates man. And that clashes with everything the Bible says.

A-G: The leaning that I have in the Spirit sees no problem here, i.e. that Genesis 1 is written from the aspect of God as the observer and author and the subject is not only the creation of the physical realm but the spiritual as well.

What a fascinating thread this has turned into! I'm enjoying it so much, thank you all!

There's something I'm wondering about, though, which is probably just a minor quibble, but I'd like to gain some insight into it all the same. To me, to speak of "corruption" is to touch on spiritual matters, which seemingly affect only living beings, and possibly only human beings. So I wonder to what extent we can speak of galaxies as having been subject to corruption in former times; I just don't see that galaxies could be spiritual entities -- unless the entire creation is in some fashion a living being, as Plato suggested.

Anyhoot, we do not say that an "ideal gas in thermal equilibrium" has been the victim of "corruption!" Why should we say this of any other purely physical phenomenon, such as a galaxy?

I'm not splitting hairs here, I hope! I just think kosta50 has raised an interesting question.

Thank you so much, dearest sister, for your splendidly beautiful essay-post! I very much appreciated your reference to Heraclitus, the great philosopher of permanence and flux who, as you say, prefigures the modern first and second laws of thermodynamics. Leibniz echos Heraclitus' insight in the modern period, saying that in order for there to be anything, there must be something that stays the same, and something that is capable of change and development. The periodic recycling of cells in the human body is a great example/illustration!

12,611 posted on 04/14/2007 10:24:10 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[... If each of us were to look at a seven faceted diamond from a different aspect, we may see something a bit differently - but it is still the same diamond and the same Light. ..]

GIRL....... you been shining britely lately..
Even more than usual.. shine on... (no response required..)

12,613 posted on 04/14/2007 10:25:46 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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