Replies

kosta50: In other words, the galactic realities tell us that corruption predates man. And that clashes with everything the Bible says.

A-G: The leaning that I have in the Spirit sees no problem here, i.e. that Genesis 1 is written from the aspect of God as the observer and author and the subject is not only the creation of the physical realm but the spiritual as well.

What a fascinating thread this has turned into! I'm enjoying it so much, thank you all!

There's something I'm wondering about, though, which is probably just a minor quibble, but I'd like to gain some insight into it all the same. To me, to speak of "corruption" is to touch on spiritual matters, which seemingly affect only living beings, and possibly only human beings. So I wonder to what extent we can speak of galaxies as having been subject to corruption in former times; I just don't see that galaxies could be spiritual entities -- unless the entire creation is in some fashion a living being, as Plato suggested.

Anyhoot, we do not say that an "ideal gas in thermal equilibrium" has been the victim of "corruption!" Why should we say this of any other purely physical phenomenon, such as a galaxy?

I'm not splitting hairs here, I hope! I just think kosta50 has raised an interesting question.

Thank you so much, dearest sister, for your splendidly beautiful essay-post! I very much appreciated your reference to Heraclitus, the great philosopher of permanence and flux who, as you say, prefigures the modern first and second laws of thermodynamics. Leibniz echos Heraclitus' insight in the modern period, saying that in order for there to be anything, there must be something that stays the same, and something that is capable of change and development. The periodic recycling of cells in the human body is a great example/illustration!

Thank you so very much for joining in this discussion! I treasure all of your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

And thank you so much for bringing Leibniz in! Jeepers, he is so important to any discussion of permanence and flux. Sorry I forgot him.

To me, to speak of "corruption" is to touch on spiritual matters, which seemingly affect only living beings, and possibly only human beings. So I wonder to what extent we can speak of galaxies as having been subject to corruption in former times; I just don't see that galaxies could be spiritual entities -- unless the entire creation is in some fashion a living being, as Plato suggested.

Indeed, I do not perceive a culpable persona being associated with inanimate things. OTOH, Scriptures do indicate in at least two places that all of Creation is "alive" - i.e. the fecundity principle:

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. - Romans 8:19-22

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. - Psalms 19:1-3

I took kosta50's concern to mean that evil existed in the physical realm before Adam's "birth" (banishment in my view) - Rosh Hashanah (5767 years ago by the Jewish calendar, 6000 years ago by the Christian calendar.)

Please correct me if I am wrong, kosta50.

Any hoot, that is why I went into the little sidebar on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - and the metaphor of the stage play.

BTW, the difference between the Jewish and Christian calendars is a dispute of some 240 years over the amount of time the Jews spent in exile in Babylon.

[... There's something I'm wondering about, though, which is probably just a minor quibble, but I'd like to gain some insight into it all the same. To me, to speak of "corruption" is to touch on spiritual matters, which seemingly affect only living beings, and possibly only human beings. So I wonder to what extent we can speak of galaxies as having been subject to corruption in former times ..]

Good point.. its a matter of observation(the observer)..

A Fruit is beautiful and juicey and perfectly sweet for a time.. A fruits perfect timeline is dependant on a cycle.. A rotten fruit feeds the seed of a new tree.. completeing the larger cycle.. So-called Corruption just might be fertilizer to/In the Garden of the Universe....

I don't know that the aspect of ALL CREATION BEING CORRUPTED has to be a 100% fathomless construct.

Clearly we don't know much about it. We don't know the dimensions, shape, intensity, degrees etc. thereof.

And, we mostly merely know that ALL CREATION GROANS EXPECTANTLY, EAGERLY FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. Whatever that means.

We can imagine, assume, infer, extrapolate that somehow satan's rebellion and adam's fall polluted things to vast 'reaches' and terminally deadly degrees. And that Christ's Cross and Resurrection LEGALLY set such to right. And, that evidently when satan is permanently locked up and that key 'thrown away,' those of us ruling and reigning with Christ shall have a rather unfettered go of it--as far as we can imagine.

So, does that mean it will be boringly easy that any automaton orangatan could do it and we can all go fishing? I don't think so. Somehow, I just can't imagine all this boot camp training is conditioning us for an eternity of laziness and passivity because the context we are ruling and reigning in is so boringly nice and easy.

Kind of boggles the mind as to therefore then what. But I suspect that challenge, development, exapnsion and growth will always be on God's agenda for His kids. IT'S JUST HIS NATURE.